Discussion:
Heavy bag in the basement?
(too old to reply)
Airkings
2004-10-04 02:20:13 UTC
Permalink
x-no-archive: yes

Is it advisable to attach a heavy bag to a basement floor joist and use it
for training? Will the vibrations cause damage? What has people's experience
been? Thanks!
--
Dave from Minnesota
fasthands
2004-10-04 03:02:36 UTC
Permalink
Sure you can hang a bag. Just make sure it isn't too heavy and it is
secured. Here is a video clip of Ross Enamait, M.S., CFT hitting the bag in
his basement.

http://www.rossboxing.com/heavybagtraining.wmv


train safely,
AK
http://www.speedbagcentral.com/Demos.html
Post by Airkings
x-no-archive: yes
Is it advisable to attach a heavy bag to a basement floor joist and use it
for training? Will the vibrations cause damage? What has people's
experience been? Thanks!
--
Dave from Minnesota
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
2004-10-04 08:22:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by fasthands
Sure you can hang a bag. Just make sure it isn't too heavy and it is
secured. Here is a video clip of Ross Enamait, M.S., CFT hitting the bag in
his basement.
http://www.rossboxing.com/heavybagtraining.wmv
He's definitely whipping that bag's ass. I've got a 100 lb bag hanging off a
joist in my garage and it hurts my arms to really pound it. Of course, I've got
some hardware in them so I guess I can't have everything.

Getting back to topic: I just drilled a small hole through the joist and hung
the bag on a bolt with great big fender washers to prevent the bolt from eating
the joist. It works fine.
--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

***@XXXXcarolina.rr.com
http://www.mortimerschnerd.com
John
2004-10-06 03:13:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mortimer Schnerd, RN
Post by fasthands
Sure you can hang a bag. Just make sure it isn't too heavy and it is
secured. Here is a video clip of Ross Enamait, M.S., CFT hitting the bag in
his basement.
http://www.rossboxing.com/heavybagtraining.wmv
He's definitely whipping that bag's ass. I've got a 100 lb bag hanging off a
joist in my garage and it hurts my arms to really pound it. Of course, I've got
some hardware in them so I guess I can't have everything.
Getting back to topic: I just drilled a small hole through the joist and hung
the bag on a bolt with great big fender washers to prevent the bolt from eating
the joist. It works fine.
The best way to attach it is to use 3 attachment points. This effectively
lowers the pivot point and the bag doesn't swing as much.
TG
2004-10-06 13:52:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by fasthands
Post by Mortimer Schnerd, RN
Post by fasthands
Sure you can hang a bag. Just make sure it isn't too heavy and it is
secured. Here is a video clip of Ross Enamait, M.S., CFT hitting the
bag in
Post by Mortimer Schnerd, RN
Post by fasthands
his basement.
http://www.rossboxing.com/heavybagtraining.wmv
He's definitely whipping that bag's ass. I've got a 100 lb bag hanging
off a
Post by Mortimer Schnerd, RN
joist in my garage and it hurts my arms to really pound it. Of course,
I've got
Post by Mortimer Schnerd, RN
some hardware in them so I guess I can't have everything.
Getting back to topic: I just drilled a small hole through the joist and
hung
Post by Mortimer Schnerd, RN
the bag on a bolt with great big fender washers to prevent the bolt from
eating
Post by Mortimer Schnerd, RN
the joist. It works fine.
The best way to attach it is to use 3 attachment points. This effectively
lowers the pivot point and the bag doesn't swing as much.
This might also help with the stress on the structure, and maybe the
rattling:
http://www.ringside.com/store/prodinfo_punchingbags.asp?number=HDHBS&variation=&aitem=105&mitem=136

(or http://tinyurl.com/4rto8) if that link gets broken. Never tried
these so don't know if it will just bob up and down or not, esp. with
a 100-150 lb bag.
LARY
2021-06-09 13:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Try doing pulling excersizes with resistant bands after your bagwork
Pressure is good for muscle

Sound like you have a bit to muc
--
For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/heavy-bag-in-the-basement-556915-.htm
TimR
2021-06-10 15:30:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by LARY
Try doing pulling excersizes with resistant bands after your bagwork
Pressure is good for muscles
Sound like you have a bit to much
--
For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/heavy-bag-in-the-basement-556915-.htm
Necro thread, this one is 17 years old.

However I have the solution for the OP, or if necessary his kids or grandkids.

Don't hang a bag in the basement. Pick a tree in the back yard with a trunk somewhere around 4 inches in diameter.

Drive around your neighborhood on trash pickup night and look for a discarded carpet.

Cut a piece of carpet about 6 feet wide and wrap it around around the trunk until it is as thick as the bag you wanted.

Now you can work out all you want on an indestructible heavy bag.
BillMahoney68
2004-10-04 03:03:12 UTC
Permalink
Heavy bag in the basement?
x-no-archive: yes
Is it advisable to attach a heavy bag to a basement floor joist and use it
for training? Will the vibrations cause damage? What has people's experience
been? Thanks!
Note to self.
Next time you see a fat bitch crossing at a crosswalk roll down window and say
"Hey baby, you got a heavybag in the basement."

Gi
http://www.sssfighting.com
"Training mecca of the famed Whitman Top Team."
Red Neckerson
2004-10-04 10:23:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Airkings
Is it advisable to attach a heavy bag to a basement floor joist and use it
for training? Will the vibrations cause damage? What has people's experience
been? Thanks!
The floor handles my wife, so I don't see the difference between walking on
the floor or hanging from the floor's joist....
Jonny R
2004-10-04 14:19:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Airkings
Post by Airkings
Is it advisable to attach a heavy bag to a basement floor joist and use it
for training? Will the vibrations cause damage? What has people's
experience
Post by Airkings
been? Thanks!
Based on feedback from people at my martial art's club and from a
martial arts store owner's personal opinion:

1) Over time you can damage the floor joist and/or the flooring above
the heavy bag. The 100 lbs heavy bag will swing from side to side,
creating a swinging torsion on the floor joist from which it hangs,
lifting/loosening the subfloor which over time can damage the flooring
above it. For example if the heavy bag is hanging in the basement
underneath the kitchen, and the kitchen has ceramic tiles, these may
crack. If its hardwood, the hardwood may become squeaky over time.
This is what a (very honest) martial arts store owner warned me when I
was shopping in his store for a heavy bag.

2) I've also had some people at my martial arts club tell me that
they've damaged their floor joist with their heavy bag, twisting its
shape (i.e. its now curved).

3) And everybody tells me that its loud. People in your house (most
notably those in the room directly above) will hear it unless you
punch and kick like a sissy :)

That being said, any punching bag is loud, including the free standing
ones like the Wave Masters. You can try hanging it from the metal
I-beam (if its exposed in the basement) which I've heard eliminates
most of the problems listed above when you hang it against a floor
joist. However hanging it from there will be louder than from a
wooden floor joist.

Hanging it in a garage is a good alternative, as is getting a hanging
cage for a heavy bag (literally a metal frame from which you hang the
bag). The main problem with the cage is that they are tall and you
need a basement with at least a 8' ceiling clearance. Some versions
also require you weighting the cage down with dumbbell plates so that
it doesn't tip over or move around. There is a version by Century
called the CornerMan that sits in a corner and doesn't require weights
to hold it down however the legs extend 9' in both directions from the
corner. Its also designed for a 70 lbs bag.

The hanging cages are usually around $200 - $300, but I've seen some
professional models sell for $1,500. The professional models are
usually designed to provide you with a less restrictive access to the
heavy bag VS the cheaper ones (i.e. you have more freedom around the
bag). You'll know what I mean if you see/try both models.

Its possible to get brackets that mount directly against the studs in
a wall, and hang the heavy bag from this, but I've heard that these
are worse than hanging the bag from the ceiling. Especially since the
bag will always be swinging and hitting the wall possibly creating
large indentations in the drywall (again, unless you punch like a
sissy :)
Stormin Mormon
2004-10-04 23:06:57 UTC
Permalink
How long does your wife hang from the floor? and how hard to hit her?
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Red Neckerson" <***@theWHITEhouse.com> wrote in message news:kw98d.4122$***@trnddc08...

The floor handles my wife, so I don't see the difference between walking on
the floor or hanging from the floor's joist....
Don Wagner
2004-10-04 14:10:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Airkings
Is it advisable to attach a heavy bag to a basement floor joist and use it
for training? Will the vibrations cause damage? What has people's experience
been? Thanks!
Depends on the house and the beam, but in general I've found the
rattle the whole place.

Pick up a free standing bag frame. There were some good 2-station
frames for about $125 used on ebay.
--Don--
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
TG
2004-10-04 19:18:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Wagner
Post by Airkings
Is it advisable to attach a heavy bag to a basement floor joist and use it
for training? Will the vibrations cause damage? What has people's experience
been? Thanks!
Depends on the house and the beam, but in general I've found the
rattle the whole place.
Pick up a free standing bag frame. There were some good 2-station
frames for about $125 used on ebay.
--Don--
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
FWIW, I bought and have used this bag stand

http://www.ringside.com/store/prodinfo_punchingbags.asp?number=HD%20DHBS&variation=&aitem=61&mitem=136

(or try http://tinyurl.com/6aqzw if that link gets broken)

(the heavy frame version) about a year and a half ago, using it with a
150-lb leather heavy bag. Unless you like to dance in circles around
the bag, it's pretty good IMO. If you hook a bungee or elastic cord
to the bottom you can pretty much punch the crap out of it without
worrying about it teetering (if you choose not to weight the back or
drill the base into the floor). However, when doing hard kicks, even
with the bungee cord attached to the bottom, you have to 'time' your
kicks to reduce excess swingage.
YoJimbo
2004-10-04 23:45:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Airkings
Is it advisable to attach a heavy bag to a basement floor joist and use it
for training? Will the vibrations cause damage? What has people's experience
been? Thanks!
I just hang mine with chains from the steel support beam, as you mentioned.
I prefer a free-swinging bag that isn't tied down and is allowed to sway.

Sure, you will get some vibration from the bag swaying, but as long as
your support chains aren't connected to anything that could be damaged,
alls you'll get out of whacking this dude is some noise upstairs :-).

I'm not as wild about bag frames as some others here. although that is
another solution.
JS
Matt Fuerst
2004-10-04 18:08:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Airkings
x-no-archive: yes
Is it advisable to attach a heavy bag to a basement floor joist and use it
for training? Will the vibrations cause damage? What has people's experience
been? Thanks!
I hung mine in my garage from two joists. I drilled two holes through
the joists and threaded the chain through the two holes. I then cut two
2X4's the distance between the joists and nailed them in as supports. I
figured the heavy bag pulling "down" on the chain would cause the joists
to bow in towards each other, so the 2X4's would counteract that force.

Ghetto engineering I know. It works pretty well and hasn't shook my
garage down yet. I don't imagine you'd have much luck watching a movie
or quietly reading the floor above you if you hang it in the basement.

Matt
John Hines
2004-10-04 18:44:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Airkings
x-no-archive: yes
Is it advisable to attach a heavy bag to a basement floor joist and use it
for training? Will the vibrations cause damage? What has people's experience
been? Thanks!
I'd suggest a pair of steel angle irons, which would allow you to spread
the load over 2 or better yet, 4 joists, and take some of the pounding.

They would make a T shaped item, which can take a ring to hold the bag.
Colbyt
2004-10-04 19:55:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Airkings
x-no-archive: yes
Is it advisable to attach a heavy bag to a basement floor joist and use it
for training? Will the vibrations cause damage? What has people's experience
been? Thanks!
--
Dave from Minnesota
My son used to shake the floor and rattle the windows. We tried it from a
joist and the steel beam same results. Then I made a mounting place out of
2 x6 stock L shaped and cross braced across 3 studs and attached it to the
sill plate and the concrete wall. End of problem. My description was
lousy. I will upload a picture if you like.


Colbyt
d***@uri.edu
2004-10-04 20:39:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Airkings
Is it advisable to attach a heavy bag to a basement floor joist and use it
for training? Will the vibrations cause damage? What has people's experience
been? Thanks!
Was it me, I'd run a laminated beam of 2 2x4s across 6 or so joists,
Attaching it at each joist with a metal hanger, and put solid blocking
between the joists.
Chas
2004-10-04 20:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@uri.edu
Was it me, I'd run a laminated beam of 2 2x4s across 6 or so joists,
Attaching it at each joist with a metal hanger, and put solid blocking
between the joists.
Bungee cords- 3 to 1 weight ratio.
Screw in a half-dozen up-eyes, run your cords through; work your ass off.

Chas
Stormin Mormon
2004-10-04 23:06:57 UTC
Permalink
I tried that one time. I kept trying to practice heating and AC repairs on
the bag, but I don't think it did much good. The guys on alt.hvac kept
telling me to get some training.

I tried training CPR, and also training factory assembly work. None of those
helped much.

What kind of training do you do?
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Airkings" <airkingsNO****@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:xr28d.2093$***@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
x-no-archive: yes

Is it advisable to attach a heavy bag to a basement floor joist and use it
for training? Will the vibrations cause damage? What has people's experience
been? Thanks!
--
Dave from Minnesota
Don Wagner
2004-10-05 14:09:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stormin Mormon
What kind of training do you do?
We start our classes decoding divine script with the aid of magic
rocks. How about you?
--Don--
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
Chas
2004-10-05 14:18:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Wagner
Post by Stormin Mormon
What kind of training do you do?
We start our classes decoding divine script with the aid of magic
rocks. How about you?
Talkin' to the day-glo lizard about where he hid me Lucky Charms.

Chas
Don Wagner
2004-10-05 14:26:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chas
Post by Don Wagner
Post by Stormin Mormon
What kind of training do you do?
We start our classes decoding divine script with the aid of magic
rocks. How about you?
Talkin' to the day-glo lizard about where he hid me Lucky Charms.
Chas
I've ended training sessions like that before....
;-)
--Don--
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
Fraser Johnston
2004-10-05 14:35:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Wagner
Post by Chas
Post by Don Wagner
Post by Stormin Mormon
What kind of training do you do?
We start our classes decoding divine script with the aid of magic
rocks. How about you?
Talkin' to the day-glo lizard about where he hid me Lucky Charms.
Chas
I've ended training sessions like that before....
;-)
--Don--
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
I have to come train where you do. Sounds like my kind of place. For the
record I learnt everything I needed to know about the Mormon religon
watching Southpark. It is almost as crazy as the whole immaculate
conception thing. Tell me that Mary and Joseph, who were married, never had
sex and then gave birth to a son. Even 2000 years ago if they didn't have
pre-martial sex the first thing when you got married was to have sex until
you dropped. Either that or Joseph must of had calluses like a brickie from
tugging himself.

Fraser
Chas
2004-10-05 14:46:51 UTC
Permalink
.....For the record I learnt everything I needed to know about the Mormon
religon watching Southpark.
They are the craziest white people on the face of the earth.
The only thing you can hope for is that they don't come after *you*.
I married into a fundamentalist, polygamous family (they have some of the
most beautiful women in the world), and have been around Saints much of my
life.
After dealing with Mormons, the Taliban is no trouble at all.

Chas
Stormin Mormon
2004-10-08 13:07:14 UTC
Permalink
Hey, at least we don't drive around with loud speakers five times a day
blaring out the prayer call. And we don't behead folks.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com
.....For the record I learnt everything I needed to know about the Mormon
religon watching Southpark.
They are the craziest white people on the face of the earth.
The only thing you can hope for is that they don't come after *you*.
I married into a fundamentalist, polygamous family (they have some of the
most beautiful women in the world), and have been around Saints much of my
life.
After dealing with Mormons, the Taliban is no trouble at all.

Chas
Chas
2004-10-08 13:46:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stormin Mormon
Hey, at least we don't drive around with loud speakers five times a day
blaring out the prayer call.
You've got a point there.
Of course there are those guys on Temple Square.
Post by Stormin Mormon
And we don't behead folks.
Anymore.
Maybe.
Of course, dressing up in costume and waylaying people by the side of the
road is still very popular- and Porter Rockwell's legacy is alive and well.
It's dangerous to pass through Mormon country if you're gentile; and
dangerous to stay there if you don't toe the Saint's line.
Of course, you can always move to Mexico, hunh?

Chas
Steve Perry
2004-10-08 18:00:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chas
Post by Stormin Mormon
Hey, at least we don't drive around with loud speakers five times a day
blaring out the prayer call.
You've got a point there.
Of course there are those guys on Temple Square.
Post by Stormin Mormon
And we don't behead folks.
Anymore.
Maybe.
Of course, dressing up in costume and waylaying people by the side of the
road is still very popular- and Porter Rockwell's legacy is alive and well.
It's dangerous to pass through Mormon country if you're gentile; and
dangerous to stay there if you don't toe the Saint's line.
Of course, you can always move to Mexico, hunh?
Chas
Yeah, but you can buy Polygamy Porter there -- "Why have just one?" --
which is passing good beer and shows somebody in the beehive state has
a sense of humor. We camped in Perry, Utah, recently -- had to stop
there, the name and all, and it was great. Mountains on one side, Great
Salt Lake on the other.

Had a buddy lived in Orem. I visited him once. We stood in his yard,
just around the corner from the Donny and Marie Osmond Performing
Theater. There were two churches in sight, and he waved in both
directions and said, "Mormons, as far as the eye can see ..."
--
Steve
Eric D. Berge
2004-10-08 20:45:46 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 11:00:20 -0700, Steve Perry
Post by Steve Perry
Post by Chas
Post by Stormin Mormon
Hey, at least we don't drive around with loud speakers five times a day
blaring out the prayer call.
You've got a point there.
Of course there are those guys on Temple Square.
Post by Stormin Mormon
And we don't behead folks.
Anymore.
Maybe.
Of course, dressing up in costume and waylaying people by the side of the
road is still very popular- and Porter Rockwell's legacy is alive and well.
It's dangerous to pass through Mormon country if you're gentile; and
dangerous to stay there if you don't toe the Saint's line.
Of course, you can always move to Mexico, hunh?
Yeah, but you can buy Polygamy Porter there
Eh. I bet Los Angeles's "He-Brew" (the Chosen Beer) is better. See
http://www.shmaltz.com/
Stormin Mormon
2004-10-09 02:39:03 UTC
Permalink
I can't remember the stats, but only about 50% of Utah is Mormons. The other
half don't seem to be too upset about it.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com
Post by Stormin Mormon
Hey, at least we don't drive around with loud speakers five times a day
blaring out the prayer call.
You've got a point there.
Of course there are those guys on Temple Square.
Post by Stormin Mormon
And we don't behead folks.
Anymore.
Maybe.
Of course, dressing up in costume and waylaying people by the side of the
road is still very popular- and Porter Rockwell's legacy is alive and well.
It's dangerous to pass through Mormon country if you're gentile; and
dangerous to stay there if you don't toe the Saint's line.
Of course, you can always move to Mexico, hunh?

Chas
YoJimbo
2004-10-09 00:28:20 UTC
Permalink
In article <6iw9d.144360$***@twister.nyroc.rr.com>, cayoung61-#spamblock*-@hotmail.com
says...
Post by Stormin Mormon
Hey, at least we don't drive around with loud speakers five times a day
blaring out the prayer call. And we don't behead folks.
Christopher A. Young
Q: What do you get when you cross a Mormon with an atheist?
A: Somebody who knocks on your door for no reason...
Stormin Mormon
2004-10-09 02:47:08 UTC
Permalink
What do you get when you cross a JW and an atheist? A guy who goes door to
door but doesn't know why.

How to drive a Unitarian family out of the neighborhood? Burn a question
mark on their front lawn.

What do you get when you cross a dyslexic and a Unitarian? A guy who lays
awake at night trying to decide if there is a dog.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"YoJimbo" <***@Pushed.Too.Far.Com> wrote in message news:e5idnTbToZk5rfrcRVn-***@comcast.com...
In article <6iw9d.144360$***@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,
cayoung61-#spamblock*-@hotmail.com
says...
Post by Stormin Mormon
Hey, at least we don't drive around with loud speakers five times a day
blaring out the prayer call. And we don't behead folks.
Christopher A. Young
Q: What do you get when you cross a Mormon with an atheist?
A: Somebody who knocks on your door for no reason...
Don Wagner
2004-10-05 14:48:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fraser Johnston
I have to come train where you do. Sounds like my kind of place.
You'd have fun. It's very laidback and casual but the stickfighting
is pretty intense.
Post by Fraser Johnston
For the record I learnt everything I needed to know about the Mormon religon
watching Southpark.
;-) It's funny, but after seeing the SP episode I looked into the
Mormons again (did a comparitive religion assignment in high school
but I was pretty wasted at the time). SP was pretty much on the money
for the whole thing.

From the Mormons I've met they are fairly normal folks, but 2nd hand
stories make them out to be crazier then shithouse rats.
--Don--
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
Chas
2004-10-05 15:20:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Wagner
From the Mormons I've met they are fairly normal folks, but 2nd hand
stories make them out to be crazier then shithouse rats.
Mormons hate you; actively.
They treat one another pretty well, but gentiles are fair game all round.
They take halachic/jesuitical 'logic' to new heights, and that's when they
bother to mask their hatred at all.
You kinda can't blame them- the early years must have been a horrorshow.
They have a strange social organization- kinda like Amish, but with guns ;-)
The whole 'survivalist/militia' thing comes out of the Mormon Lands. They've
lived like that for a hundred and fifty years.

Chas
Robert Low
2004-10-05 16:01:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chas
They treat one another pretty well, but gentiles are fair game all round.
Hey, I know all about Mormons, too. I read
"Riders of the Purple Sage". Looks like
not much has changed...
--
Rob. http://www.mis.coventry.ac.uk/~mtx014/
Stormin Mormon
2004-10-08 13:21:09 UTC
Permalink
anyone says he knows "all about" seldom does.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com
Post by Chas
They treat one another pretty well, but gentiles are fair game all round.
Hey, I know all about Mormons, too. I read
"Riders of the Purple Sage". Looks like
not much has changed...
--
Rob. http://www.mis.coventry.ac.uk/~mtx014/
Robert Low
2004-10-08 13:31:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stormin Mormon
anyone says he knows "all about" seldom does.
Hey, Riders of the Purple Sage is an eternal classic!

/* Insert standard whinge about top-posting here. */
Post by Stormin Mormon
Post by Chas
They treat one another pretty well, but gentiles are fair game all round.
Hey, I know all about Mormons, too. I read
"Riders of the Purple Sage". Looks like
not much has changed...
--
Rob. http://www.mis.coventry.ac.uk/~mtx014/
--
Rob. http://www.mis.coventry.ac.uk/~mtx014/
Chas
2004-10-08 13:47:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stormin Mormon
anyone says he knows "all about" seldom does.
It's sufficient to know enough.

Chas
Jacob Andersen
2004-10-08 15:01:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chas
Post by Stormin Mormon
anyone says he knows "all about" seldom does.
It's sufficient to know enough.
LOL, you have a point. A tautological one maybe, but a point nonetheless.

/Jacob
Chas
2004-10-08 15:51:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jacob Andersen
LOL, you have a point. A tautological one maybe, but a point nonetheless.
If they revere the angel Moroni, why aren't they called Mor.....
oh; nevermind.

Chas
Karim Rashad
2004-10-08 13:40:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stormin Mormon
anyone says he knows "all about" seldom does.
The mild sarcasm of the statement below was sort of lost on you, wasn't
it? ;-)
Post by Stormin Mormon
Hey, I know all about Mormons, too. I read "Riders of the Purple Sage".
Looks like not much has changed...
--
Karim Rashad <remove SPAMFREE: krashad at SPAMorbisFREEuk dot com>
Chas
2004-10-08 13:57:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karim Rashad
Post by Stormin Mormon
anyone says he knows "all about" seldom does.
The mild sarcasm of the statement below was sort of lost on you, wasn't
it? ;-)
And that's unusual- they're generally so jolly.

Chas
Stormin Mormon
2004-10-09 22:28:39 UTC
Permalink
Yep. Went right over the top of my head.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com
Post by Stormin Mormon
anyone says he knows "all about" seldom does.
The mild sarcasm of the statement below was sort of lost on you, wasn't
it? ;-)
Post by Stormin Mormon
Hey, I know all about Mormons, too. I read "Riders of the Purple Sage".
Looks like not much has changed...
--
Karim Rashad <remove SPAMFREE: krashad at SPAMorbisFREEuk dot com>
ordosclan
2004-10-08 19:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stormin Mormon
anyone says he knows "all about" seldom does.
Something "reality shoes" have shown. The bullshit factor. The more
someone talks about working hard, the less they work. Words are not
actions. But some people as they weasle into machiavellian cushy
jobs, can do nothing but propogandize with pep rally talk about
"tradition", old world values ("...i swore on my fathers
deathbed....", "my dad always used to say"). It may work on
boyfriends, girlfriends, or blue collar workers, but not everyones
stupid.

***@mail.hongkong.com
Shuurai
2004-10-08 20:35:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stormin Mormon
anyone says he knows "all about" seldom does.
I used to work with a Mormon, and he let me borrow some books that
explained the religion and their version of history. I was amazed
that anyone could actually believe this stuff. Not so much the
spiritual side, but the historical...

It makes just slightly less sense than scientology.
Robert Low
2004-10-08 20:50:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shuurai
that anyone could actually believe this stuff. Not so much the
spiritual side, but the historical...
So, now you think it implausible that the Amerindians are
the lost tribes of Israel? But I've seen video evidence
that it's true. Well, OK, it was Blazing Saddles, but
it was on video.
--
Rob. http://www.mis.coventry.ac.uk/~mtx014/
willshak
2004-10-08 21:08:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shuurai
Post by Stormin Mormon
anyone says he knows "all about" seldom does.
I used to work with a Mormon, and he let me borrow some books that
explained the religion and their version of history. I was amazed
that anyone could actually believe this stuff. Not so much the
spiritual side, but the historical...
It makes just slightly less sense than scientology.
Name any religion that makes any sense.
Don Wagner
2004-10-08 21:29:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by willshak
Name any religion that makes any sense.
I'm pretty down with Taoism and by Crom I will have your skull as my
drinking bowl if you anger me!
;-0
--Don--
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
Badger North
2004-10-12 16:17:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Wagner
I'm pretty down with Taoism and by Crom I will have your skull as my
drinking bowl if you anger me!
That would make a lovely gift for any occasion.

Badger Jones
www.youngforest.ca
Don Wagner
2004-10-12 19:40:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Badger North
That would make a lovely gift for any occasion.
They had them at a ren fest I was at in Florida a few years back.
Made out of resin, but done up to look like varnished bone. Pretty
creepy shit.
--Don--
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
Badger North
2004-10-12 19:46:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Wagner
Post by Badger North
That would make a lovely gift for any occasion.
They had them at a ren fest I was at in Florida a few years back.
Made out of resin, but done up to look like varnished bone. Pretty
creepy shit.
Creepier shit - there was a store in Toronto in the 80's that sold
actual human skulls n' stuff (earrings made of phalanges, a walking
stick with the grip made out of a trochanter). Most of the skulls
were just... skulls, but there was one piece that just made me sad - a
child's skull made into an inkwell, with the most gorgeous silver
fittings.

Badger Jones
www.youngforest.ca
Chas
2004-10-12 20:26:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Badger North
Creepier shit - there was a store in Toronto in the 80's that sold
actual human skulls n' stuff (earrings made of phalanges, a walking
stick with the grip made out of a trochanter).
I used a Tibetan skull cup for a cereal bowl for a while- and have a pair of
chopsticks made from human bone still.

Chas
Robert Low
2004-10-08 21:40:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by willshak
Name any religion that makes any sense.
Since when was that a relevant criterion?

Anyway, got to go now. Chthulhu gets cranky
if I don't sacrifice by midnight, and you
do *not* want to see him when he's cranky.
--
Rob. http://www.mis.coventry.ac.uk/~mtx014/
mark
2004-10-08 22:38:46 UTC
Permalink
Anyway, got to go now. Chthulhu gets cranky
Post by Robert Low
if I don't sacrifice by midnight, and you
do *not* want to see him when he's cranky.
--
Rob.
Aiiaaa! Aiiiaa! Shub Niggarath! The goat with a thousand young!

Beware the yellow priest
Fraser Johnston
2004-10-09 06:49:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by willshak
Post by Shuurai
Post by Stormin Mormon
anyone says he knows "all about" seldom does.
I used to work with a Mormon, and he let me borrow some books that
explained the religion and their version of history. I was amazed
that anyone could actually believe this stuff. Not so much the
spiritual side, but the historical...
It makes just slightly less sense than scientology.
Name any religion that makes any sense.
Atheism.

Fraser
Stormin Mormon
2004-10-09 22:36:43 UTC
Permalink
I met a very devout atheist. Went nowhere every week. Kept working on not
praying, and he payed a zero tithe. Tried to keep from reading scriptures,
and didn't have any commandments to live.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com
Post by willshak
Name any religion that makes any sense.
Atheism.

Fraser
Fraser Johnston
2004-10-10 00:33:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stormin Mormon
I met a very devout atheist. Went nowhere every week. Kept working on not
praying, and he payed a zero tithe. Tried to keep from reading scriptures,
and didn't have any commandments to live.
I can't remember meeting you.

Fraser
weirdwolf
2004-10-10 10:10:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fraser Johnston
Post by Stormin Mormon
I met a very devout atheist. Went nowhere every week. Kept working on not
praying, and he payed a zero tithe. Tried to keep from reading scriptures,
and didn't have any commandments to live.
I can't remember meeting you.
Dude ! like I totally remember jim, he was like totally the guy with the
bad haircut and dodgy black suit, we pointed and laughed at!
Just ask him? I'll bet that's a really really good description of him...
Post by Fraser Johnston
;-Þ
Ted
--
Evil is such a negative term........
I prefer differently moraled.
\ /
0 0
°
~
Y
Wayne Dobson
2004-10-12 11:31:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by willshak
Name any religion that makes any sense.
Which part of what religions don't make sense?
--
Wayne
"Aka Dobbie the House Elf."
Karim Rashad
2004-10-12 11:58:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne Dobson
Post by willshak
Name any religion that makes any sense.
Which part of what religions don't make sense?
For me, the 'God' bit, mostly.
--
Karim Rashad <remove SPAMFREE: krashad at SPAMorbisFREEuk dot com>
Wayne Dobson
2004-10-14 14:57:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Karim Rashad
Post by Wayne Dobson
Post by willshak
Name any religion that makes any sense.
Which part of what religions don't make sense?
For me, the 'God' bit, mostly.
Hehehe... Get back to your primordial soup! Heathen! Hehehe...
--
Wayne
"Aka Dobbie the House Elf."
Jacob Andersen
2004-10-12 23:06:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wayne Dobson
Post by willshak
Name any religion that makes any sense.
Which part of what religions don't make sense?
Most parts of all of them.

/Jacob
Doug Miller
2004-10-08 21:57:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shuurai
Post by Stormin Mormon
anyone says he knows "all about" seldom does.
I used to work with a Mormon, and he let me borrow some books that
explained the religion and their version of history. I was amazed
that anyone could actually believe this stuff. Not so much the
spiritual side, but the historical...
Well, for any believing Christian, the spiritual side of Mormonism is plenty
hard to take, once you know what the Mormon Church actually teaches. Here's a
sample:

"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's."
http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/130/22#22
Michael Ozanne
2004-10-11 13:40:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Miller
Well, for any believing Christian, the spiritual side of Mormonism is plenty
hard to take, once you know what the Mormon Church actually teaches.
Once upon a consulting assignment I ended up parked at the Glasgow
Marriott, In idleness I picked up the copy of the Book of Mormon that
was where the Gideon Bible should have been. Having read through a
selection of chapters I concluded that the Monty Python team had
bundled up all the stuff that was just to silly to go into "The Life
of Brian" and sent it back via a time portal. It even made the Koran
look sensible.
Chas
2004-10-11 14:57:16 UTC
Permalink
......Having read through a
selection of chapters I concluded that the Monty Python team had
bundled up all the stuff that was just to silly to go into "The Life
of Brian" and sent it back via a time portal. It even made the Koran
look sensible.
Now think of the fact that much of our FBI is made up of Mormons; much of
the USSecret Service, USMarshals and so on. They control a strip of land
running from Arizona to Idaho, and you cross it at your peril.
They hate you.
I mean, they actively sit around and hate you- think up shit to do to you,
do it when they can. There were some terrible and unjustified things done to
them, and they haven't forgotten it at all.
They are the basis for the survivalist movement; for the militia movement;
for the separatist movement. They are a huge religious commune that acts in
the corporate and political world as well.
I married into the religion; took instruction, lived/live amongst them-
weirdest white folks you ever met, and thinkin' about you all the time.

Chas
Mike Sigman
2004-10-11 15:40:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chas
......Having read through a
selection of chapters I concluded that the Monty Python team had
bundled up all the stuff that was just to silly to go into "The Life
of Brian" and sent it back via a time portal. It even made the Koran
look sensible.
Now think of the fact that much of our FBI is made up of Mormons; much of
the USSecret Service, USMarshals and so on. They control a strip of land
running from Arizona to Idaho, and you cross it at your peril.
They hate you.
I mean, they actively sit around and hate you- think up shit to do to you,
do it when they can. There were some terrible and unjustified things done
to them, and they haven't forgotten it at all.
They are the basis for the survivalist movement; for the militia movement;
for the separatist movement. They are a huge religious commune that acts
in the corporate and political world as well.
I married into the religion; took instruction, lived/live amongst them-
weirdest white folks you ever met, and thinkin' about you all the time.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
**purses lips.... adds "Mormon Conspiracy Theory" to long list of
Chas-isms***
Chas
2004-10-11 16:06:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Sigman
Post by Chas
weirdest white folks you ever met, and thinkin' about you all the time.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
**purses lips.... adds "Mormon Conspiracy Theory" to long list of
Chas-isms***
They're like a picture in a book for you, aren't they?
So far, I'm the only one in the conversation that has actual experience with
them, or fifty years of dealing with them. I married into a Pioneer Family;
a fundamentalist polygamous enclave.
I got to sit in the Gentile Seat on the Mormon Train a long time ago.

Chas
Dan
2004-10-13 04:36:13 UTC
Permalink
"Chas" <***@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<Mc6dnUNeY8_hMvfcRVn-***@comcast.com>...

Now think of the fact that much of our FBI is made up of Mormons; much
of
the USSecret Service, USMarshals and so on. They control a strip of
land
running from Arizona to Idaho, and you cross it at your peril.
They hate you.
I mean, they actively sit around and hate you- think up shit to do to
you,
do it when they can. There were some terrible and unjustified things
done to
them, and they haven't forgotten it at all.
They are the basis for the survivalist movement; for the militia
movement;
for the separatist movement. They are a huge religious commune that
acts in
the corporate and political world as well.
I married into the religion; took instruction, lived/live amongst
them-
weirdest white folks you ever met, and thinkin' about you all the
time.

Chas
Post by Chas
Post by Mike Sigman
Post by Chas
weirdest white folks you ever met, and thinkin' about you all the time.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
**purses lips.... adds "Mormon Conspiracy Theory" to long list of
Chas-isms***
They're like a picture in a book for you, aren't they?
So far, I'm the only one in the conversation that has actual experience with
them, or fifty years of dealing with them. I married into a Pioneer Family;
a fundamentalist polygamous enclave.
I got to sit in the Gentile Seat on the Mormon Train a long time ago.
Chas
Chas-
hi. i'm not disputing the facts of your experience regarding the
polygamous clan you lived among, experiences on the highway with the
uhp, etc. however, i would say that my experiences have differed from
yours. i've lived in utah over a decade, married into a mormon family
(my wife is ex-mormon), i work with mormons, live with mormons, etc.
my wife's family has both strong pioineer and polygamous roots (her
great grandfather's family was in mexico for a bit and they even have
some cool stories about pancho villa). neither of us have ever
experienced nor even heard of some of the views that you mention
above.
i would totally agree with the idea that utah is probably closer
to a theocracy than any state in the union, but in the sense of the
people being very conservative, religious republicans not insane
gentile haters. i would also agree that they have a strong
persecutory complex from their early history and that many of them
believe they have the one true religion.
however, i do not believe that the positions you describe above
are held by the majority of mormons that a person would meet in utah.
rather, they would be an extreme view.
back to lurking...

regards,

dan
Chas
2004-10-13 14:16:04 UTC
Permalink
.....i've lived in utah over a decade, married into a mormon family
(my wife is ex-mormon),
Yeah; my wife went Jack too- then returned to the Church later in her life,
very ardent now.
i would totally agree with the idea that utah is probably closer
to a theocracy than any state in the union, but in the sense of the
people being very conservative, religious republicans not insane
gentile haters. i would also agree that they have a strong
persecutory complex from their early history and that many of them
believe they have the one true religion.
Now give them a gun and see what happens.
however, i do not believe that the positions you describe above
are held by the majority of mormons that a person would meet in utah.
rather, they would be an extreme view.
The extreme view is just that- the extreme of a scale that starts from
'neutral'. You don't need to meet but one of the extreme ones, and 'neutral'
isn't available at all.
I'm probably more affrontive to them than you are as well. It's pretty
obvious, from 50 ft. away, that I'm not Mormon- not true with them at all.

Chas
Doug Miller
2004-10-14 14:59:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chas
I'm probably more affrontive to them than you are as well. It's pretty
obvious, from 50 ft. away, that I'm not Mormon- not true with them at all.
Just curious... how can your religious affiliation (or lack thereof) be
obvious from a distance of fifty feet?
Chas
2004-10-14 17:36:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doug Miller
Post by Chas
I'm probably more affrontive to them than you are as well. It's pretty
obvious, from 50 ft. away, that I'm not Mormon- not true with them at all.
Just curious... how can your religious affiliation (or lack thereof) be
obvious from a distance of fifty feet?
Cigarette pack in my front shirt pocket- dead giveaway every time- my shirts
get a bleached edge where it sits.
The long hair, beard, tattoo don't help- or drinking coffee either. Holding
a Coca-Cola can would be a tip-off.

Chas
YoJimbo
2004-10-15 00:02:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chas
Post by Doug Miller
Post by Chas
I'm probably more affrontive to them than you are as well. It's pretty
obvious, from 50 ft. away, that I'm not Mormon- not true with them at all.
Just curious... how can your religious affiliation (or lack thereof) be
obvious from a distance of fifty feet?
Cigarette pack in my front shirt pocket- dead giveaway every time- my shirts
get a bleached edge where it sits.
The long hair, beard, tattoo don't help- or drinking coffee either. Holding
a Coca-Cola can would be a tip-off.
Chas
I have to go with Chas here.
This list is enough to make any Mormon run away from *150* feet out.
JS
Stormin Mormon
2004-10-15 14:02:29 UTC
Permalink
About half the Mormons I know own some form of gun. From what little I know,
Mormons actually have a lower crime rate than the rest of the population.
Not zero, but lower.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Chas" <***@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:LNqdnUFIe8U-pfDcRVn-

i would also agree that they have a strong
Post by Dan
persecutory complex from their early history and that many of them
believe they have the one true religion.
Now give them a gun and see what happens.
weirdwolf
2004-10-15 14:46:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stormin Mormon
About half the Mormons I know own some form of gun. From what little I know,
Mormons actually have a lower crime rate than the rest of the population.
Not zero, but lower.
However when you do go crazy and commit a crime it's a real doozy.
Anybody want to buy some letters? All original and going cheap,(or rather
going BOOOOOM!)
Ted
--
Evil is such a negative term........
I prefer differently moraled.
\ /
0 0
°
~
Y
Chas
2004-10-15 17:01:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stormin Mormon
About half the Mormons I know own some form of gun. From what little I know,
Mormons actually have a lower crime rate than the rest of the population.
Not zero, but lower.
Maybe they don't count Saint-on-Gentile crime.

Chas
Michael Ozanne
2004-10-11 21:53:20 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 08:57:16 -0600, "Chas"
Post by Chas
I married into the religion; took instruction, lived/live amongst them-
weirdest white folks you ever met, and thinkin' about you all the time.
So good old Sir Arthur not too far off the mark then?

We need to get them converted to Shorinji Kempo. They'd still be
captives of a bullshit religion, but at least they'd be combat
incapable.......
Shuurai
2004-10-13 20:59:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chas
......Having read through a
selection of chapters I concluded that the Monty Python team had
bundled up all the stuff that was just to silly to go into "The Life
of Brian" and sent it back via a time portal. It even made the Koran
look sensible.
Now think of the fact that much of our FBI is made up of Mormons; much of
the USSecret Service, USMarshals and so on. They control a strip of land
running from Arizona to Idaho, and you cross it at your peril.
I've been through that strip of land in a car, on a bike, and through parts
of it on foot - met plently of people along the way. Never found there to
be any peril.
Post by Chas
They hate you.
Nah, they're just really uptight people.
Post by Chas
I mean, they actively sit around and hate you- think up shit to do to you,
do it when they can. There were some terrible and unjustified things done to
them, and they haven't forgotten it at all.
None of the mormons I know are like this. Quite the opposite, most of them
are quite friendly and helpful, often to the point where it's annoying.
Granted I don't know what they talk about in secret but frankly don't care
much either.
Post by Chas
They are the basis for the survivalist movement; for the militia movement;
for the separatist movement. They are a huge religious commune that acts in
the corporate and political world as well.
True for every other major religion.
Post by Chas
I married into the religion; took instruction, lived/live amongst them-
weirdest white folks you ever met, and thinkin' about you all the time.
Just for future reference, is there any group that *isn't* out to get you?
Chas
2004-10-13 21:57:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shuurai
Post by Chas
Now think of the fact that much of our FBI is made up of Mormons; much of
the USSecret Service, USMarshals and so on. They control a strip of land
running from Arizona to Idaho, and you cross it at your peril.
I've been through that strip of land in a car, on a bike, and through parts
of it on foot - met plently of people along the way. Never found there to
be any peril.
Even a good net has holes in it.
Post by Shuurai
Post by Chas
They hate you.
Nah, they're just really uptight people.
What does 'uptight' mean?
Post by Shuurai
Granted I don't know what they talk about in secret but frankly don't care
much either.
Obviously, it doesn't impinge on you much- not so for a lot of other people.
Post by Shuurai
Just for future reference, is there any group that *isn't* out to get you?
I've only identified one group that's 'out to get me', and that's corrupt
government officials here in the Denver area. And I've proven it time and
time again.
If I knew there was a nest of vipers in your path, I'd warn you about them
too.

Chas
Badger North
2004-10-14 13:30:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Shuurai
Just for future reference, is there any group that *isn't* out to get you?
Only the ones that haven't met him. :-)

Badger Jones
www.youngforest.ca
Stormin Mormon
2004-10-09 22:28:39 UTC
Permalink
Only understood through prayer, and witness of the Spirit.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com
Post by Stormin Mormon
anyone says he knows "all about" seldom does.
I used to work with a Mormon, and he let me borrow some books that
explained the religion and their version of history. I was amazed
that anyone could actually believe this stuff. Not so much the
spiritual side, but the historical...

It makes just slightly less sense than scientology.
YoJimbo
2004-10-12 22:41:35 UTC
Permalink
In article <rCZ9d.291257$***@twister.nyroc.rr.com>, cayoung61-#spamblock*-@hotmail.com
says...
Post by Stormin Mormon
Post by Stormin Mormon
anyone says he knows "all about" seldom does.
I used to work with a Mormon, and he let me borrow some books that
explained the religion and their version of history. I was amazed
that anyone could actually believe this stuff. Not so much the
spiritual side, but the historical...
It makes just slightly less sense than scientology.
Only understood through prayer, and witness of the Spirit.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com
Yikes, I hate to T-off on the various religious sects because reason ain't
a priority with any of 'em anyway, ay, but the Mormon version of "history"
has to go, Stormin' Mormon.

Let's not kid ourselves this stuff about Joseph Smith discovering a "lost"
scripture and being able to read it suddenly with golden spectacles
represents any kind of factual information.
That's about a lame an origins story as I've ever seen.

Even the Scientologist scam with alien beings involved has more
pizzazz- you Mormons need some aliens to spice this thing up.
The golden specs routine just ain't making it.
JS
Abe
2004-10-09 00:26:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stormin Mormon
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com
------------------------
Why would I need to learn more about myself if I'm already all
knowing?

When you send a message, make sure it applies to me also. Trust me,
you don't want to be wasting my time.
Fraser Johnston
2004-10-06 00:44:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Wagner
Post by Fraser Johnston
I have to come train where you do. Sounds like my kind of place.
You'd have fun. It's very laidback and casual but the stickfighting
is pretty intense.
Post by Fraser Johnston
For the record I learnt everything I needed to know about the Mormon religon
watching Southpark.
;-) It's funny, but after seeing the SP episode I looked into the
Mormons again (did a comparitive religion assignment in high school
but I was pretty wasted at the time). SP was pretty much on the money
for the whole thing.
From the Mormons I've met they are fairly normal folks, but 2nd hand
stories make them out to be crazier then shithouse rats.
--Don--
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
I did some searching on the net as well after seeing that episode. It was
pretty interesting. Dum dum dum.

Fraser
Robert Low
2004-10-05 14:40:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fraser Johnston
conception thing. Tell me that Mary and Joseph, who were married, never had
sex and then gave birth to a son. Even 2000 years ago if they didn't have
You don't pay attention much, do you? She was supposed to have
got pregnant while they were engaged, but not yet married.
Yes, I know there are simpler explanations than 'God did
it', but you could at least get the mythology you're rejecting
correct.
--
Rob. http://www.mis.coventry.ac.uk/~mtx014/
Fraser Johnston
2004-10-05 14:25:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Wagner
Post by Stormin Mormon
What kind of training do you do?
We start our classes decoding divine script with the aid of magic
rocks. How about you?
--Don--
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
Same with us. But we read ours out of a hat.

Fraser
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