More on Kerry's medals

[Mike Sigman]

Records on medals spark questions


By Charles Hurt
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


The military records that Sen. John Kerry posted on his Web site yesterday
raise new questions about the actions he took to earn several prestigious
war medals and whether he deserved them.
The Navy awarded Mr. Kerry three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and a
Bronze Star in just four months of commanding a gunboat along rivers in
Vietnam. It's an extraordinary record, say many veterans, and one that
raises questions on its face.

For example, those military records do not show Mr. Kerry ever missing a
day of duty for injuries, there is conflict between some of the accounts and
Mr. Kerry's presidential campaign still refuses to release some records.
"The idea that John Kerry would have put in for three Purple Hearts
during only four months in country is just ridiculous," said Mel Howell from
Evansville, Ind., a retired Navy officer who flew helicopters in Vietnam.
"Most of us came away with all kinds of scratches like the ones Kerry got
but never accepted Purple Hearts for them."
Upon inspection of the government documents posted on the Massachusetts
Democrat's Web site, other questions arise such as the conflicting
descriptions in official records of the injuries Mr. Kerry sustained on
March 13, 1969. It was the commendations he earned that day — a Bronze Star
and a third Purple Heart — that let Mr. Kerry request a transfer out of
Vietnam and into a desk job eight months before his tour expired.
The Personnel Casualty Report from that day says Mr. Kerry "suffered
shrapnel wounds in his left buttocks and contusions on his right forearm
when a mine detonated close aboard" his boat.
But the citation for the Bronze Star that he was awarded for the same
action described "his arm bleeding and in pain," saying nothing about arm
bruises or shrapnel wounds anywhere.
"I don't want to say it's a lie, but it isn't true," said Charles
Kaufman, a retired Air Force captain whose job once was to submit military
award requests.
"His Bronze Star medal citation appears to be based on an injury he did
not receive," said Mr. Kaufman, who now lives in Germany. "His arm was not
bleeding. If the paperwork had said, 'Kerry had a bruised arm,' I wonder if
he would have been given this medal for bravery?"
"They don't quite jibe," said James W. Doran, national service director
of the advocacy group American Veterans. But he did not fault Mr. Kerry.
"Somebody up the command flowered it up," Mr. Doran said. "They just
made it pretty for somebody's signature."
Several requests for comment were not returned by the Kerry campaign
yesterday.
During Mr. Kerry's relatively short tour in Vietnam, he racked up a
stunning record, based on the documents released by the campaign yesterday.
All of his performance evaluations rated him first or nearly first among
his peers, and no evidence suggests he ever missed duty because of illness
or injuries. He was credited with killing 20 enemy fighters.
"Intelligent, mature and rich in educational background and experience,
Ens Kerry is one of the finest young officers I have ever met and without
question one of the most promising," wrote Capt. Allen Slifer, Mr. Kerry's
commanding superior aboard the USS Gridley before going into combat.
But some veterans say his record is too good to be true.
"Superhuman" is how Ray Waller, a combat medic in the Marines, described
Mr. Kerry's record of awards.
"I don't remember anybody getting three Purple Hearts and leaving, even
within six or eight months," said Mr. Waller, who as a medic was responsible
for determining whether injuries warranted Purple Hearts. "And if they did,
it was very, very rare — not to mention the Silver Star and the Bronze
Star."
He also was surprised that Mr. Kerry never missed duty for the wounds
that earned him Purple Hearts. Although Mr. Kerry has said one of the
injuries caused him to lose two days of service, there is no evidence he
ever lost time for any injuries.
"If he's got shrapnel in his buttocks, he's going to lose time," Mr.
Waller said. "It would be impossible to have three wounds and never have a
loss of time."
Though the campaign released more than 120 pages of Navy records
yesterday, Mr. Kerry still refused to release medical records that more
thoroughly describe the injuries.
Among the records that the campaign will not release is any explanation
for the injuries that led to Mr. Kerry's first Purple Heart, less than a
month after going into combat.
Although the campaign won't release one document, called a "Sick Call
Treatment Record," officials allowed the Associated Press to view it earlier
this week. It said: "Shrapnel in left arm above elbow. Shrapnel removed and
appl[ied] bacitracin dressing. Ret[urned] to duty."
"If it only required bacitracin and a Band-Aid, it sounds like a piece
of hot shrapnel that was flying around and may not have even broken the
skin," said Mr. Waller, adding that he'd never heard of a shrapnel injury
that didn't require a tetanus shot and time off leading to a Purple Heart.
It was Mr. Kerry's first injury that already is the source of serious
questions raised by his commanding officer at the time, Grant Hibbard.
Mr. Hibbard declined requests yesterday to be interviewed by The
Washington Times, but he told the Boston Globe that Mr. Kerry's injuries
were too minor to qualify for a Purple Heart.
"He had a little scratch on his forearm, and he was holding a piece of
shrapnel," Mr. Hibbard said. "People in the office were saying, 'I don't
think we got any fire,' and there is a guy holding a little piece of
shrapnel in his palm."
But Mr. Kerry persisted and, to his own "chagrin," Mr. Hibbard told the
Globe, he dropped the matter.
"I do remember some questions, some correspondence about it," Mr.
Hibbard said. "I finally said, 'OK, if that's what happened ... do whatever
you want.' After that, I don't know what happened. Obviously, he got it, I
don't know how."
One possible reason why Mr. Kerry racked up so many battle awards in
such a short period of time might be the command structure. Because awards
are generally recommended by superiors, Mr. Kerry's bosses would have relied
on accounts of the action from Mr. Kerry and his underling crew mates.
And because injuries warranting Purple Hearts are verified by medics —
or corpsmen — it would have been a soldier inferior to Mr. Kerry who was in
charge of determining the seriousness of his injuries.
"If the commander walks up to the corpsman and says, 'I'm wounded,' "
said Mr. Waller, "his corpsman isn't going to say it's just a scratch, he's
going to say 'OK.' "



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[Chas]

Post by Mike Sigman
The Navy awarded Mr. Kerry three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and a
Bronze Star in just four months of commanding a gunboat along rivers in
Vietnam. It's an extraordinary record, say many veterans, and one that
raises questions on its face.

One has to wonder how Kerry got the military to go along with such
shenanigans. None of those medals are a matter of simple acceptance of a
self-report.

Chas

[Mike Sigman]

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
The Navy awarded Mr. Kerry three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and a
Bronze Star in just four months of commanding a gunboat along rivers in
Vietnam. It's an extraordinary record, say many veterans, and one that
raises questions on its face.

One has to wonder how Kerry got the military to go along with such
shenanigans. None of those medals are a matter of simple acceptance of a
self-report.
Chas

Sheesh..... FOUR FREAKIN' MONTHS!!!!!! What an absolute obvious crock of
complete shit. It's so absurd it's not even funny. It figures that his
next step was a liberal Democrat in the Senate.

Mike

[Chas]

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by Chas
One has to wonder how Kerry got the military to go along with such
shenanigans. None of those medals are a matter of simple acceptance of a
self-report.

Sheesh..... FOUR FREAKIN' MONTHS!!!!!! What an absolute obvious crock of
complete shit. It's so absurd it's not even funny. It figures that his
next step was a liberal Democrat in the Senate.

You figure there's a secret officer cabal of Democratic medal-givers? Maybe
a service-wide conspiracy to advance their nefarious plans for over-taxation
by giving undeserving, but politically viable, youngsters undeserved medals?
I don't like Kerry for a lot of reasons, not the least his traitorous
activity during the SEAsian War- his medal controversy pales next some of
his other bullshit.

Chas

[Mark Goldberg]

Post by Chas
I don't like Kerry for a lot of reasons, not the least his traitorous
activity during the SEAsian War- his medal controversy pales next some of
his other bullshit.
Chas

The traitorous activity during conflict is ever more glaring looking at
this overbloom medal parade of his. He sounds like some hyperventilated
eagle scout with all this posturing.

I was just on the phone with a patient of mine- who got dragged from my
care by his insurance company.

A kind of interesting story. He called my home about 6 weeks ago on fri
night- he'd had a big toe amputated, some other procedures- but I hadn't
seen him in five years because he has this grade F insurance plan that
doesn't include me or anyone in the state, as far as I know.

He came and said..." you're the only doctor I could think of to come
too; his forefoot had large gangrenous sores, foul odor, cellulitis.
I admitted him immediately, and had to amputate his big toe, part of his
metatarsal but the rest of the toes and forefoot I got to save.

Anyway, the idiocy of his inane insurance company meant they took him
away from my hospital and a subacute facility I could have closely
followed him in, to their's in NY, where he laid around as it got worse
and finally I called, and got him to complain and get someone to see
him. He needed some wound clean up debridements, and it will take longer
and cost more but go figure how those bean counters figured that it was
saving money.

Anyway- my point.

He did three tours of duty in Vietnam, this guy. A marine. He was
blownup in a jeep off a road, stabbed in his arm, cut, shot, not
seriously wounded from those- got a couple purples and a couple lesser
medals,in three years, but he wasn't an officer, so they didn't get the
attention officers got for all that.

He also dated one girl who he took as his bride, over there- and she was
blown up in a cafe bombing before they were to leave together for the
states. He never really dated much after that, never married again.

Here's a guy, who came home, taught some self defense to the FBI, and
took modest work after that. He has suffered diabetes and some other
problems and now, now, it's part time work as a security guard, and his
money is pretty much gone after six or seven years, and he asked for
nothing from the country, didn't complain, is glad to be alive, and is
interested in his country and it's future.

So there's the story of the officer, kerry,the antiwar opportunist, who
got his grab bag of medals for
stuff that noncommissioned guys wouldn't have gotten rewarded for, and
if he would've just fessed up a bit about that he'd look a whole lot
better but now he's the war hero who's going to get the other war hero's
of hollywood, Europe and the UN to cover our asses, covet our assets, or
whatever, they call all his post modern appeasement politics.

Mark

[Earl Camembert]

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 22:13:33 GMT, Mark Goldberg

Post by Mark Goldberg

Post by Chas
I don't like Kerry for a lot of reasons, not the least his traitorous
activity during the SEAsian War- his medal controversy pales next some of
his other bullshit.
Chas

The traitorous activity during conflict is ever more glaring looking at
this overbloom medal parade of his. He sounds like some hyperventilated
eagle scout with all this posturing.
I was just on the phone with a patient of mine- who got dragged from my
care by his insurance company.
A kind of interesting story. He called my home about 6 weeks ago on fri
night- he'd had a big toe amputated, some other procedures- but I hadn't
seen him in five years because he has this grade F insurance plan that
doesn't include me or anyone in the state, as far as I know.
He came and said..." you're the only doctor I could think of to come
too; his forefoot had large gangrenous sores, foul odor, cellulitis.
I admitted him immediately, and had to amputate his big toe, part of his
metatarsal but the rest of the toes and forefoot I got to save.
Anyway, the idiocy of his inane insurance company meant they took him
away from my hospital and a subacute facility I could have closely
followed him in, to their's in NY, where he laid around as it got worse
and finally I called, and got him to complain and get someone to see
him. He needed some wound clean up debridements, and it will take longer
and cost more but go figure how those bean counters figured that it was
saving money.
Anyway- my point.
He did three tours of duty in Vietnam, this guy. A marine. He was
blownup in a jeep off a road, stabbed in his arm, cut, shot, not
seriously wounded from those- got a couple purples and a couple lesser
medals,in three years, but he wasn't an officer, so they didn't get the
attention officers got for all that.
He also dated one girl who he took as his bride, over there- and she was
blown up in a cafe bombing before they were to leave together for the
states. He never really dated much after that, never married again.
Here's a guy, who came home, taught some self defense to the FBI, and
took modest work after that. He has suffered diabetes and some other
problems and now, now, it's part time work as a security guard, and his
money is pretty much gone after six or seven years, and he asked for
nothing from the country, didn't complain, is glad to be alive, and is
interested in his country and it's future.
So there's the story of the officer, kerry,the antiwar opportunist, who
got his grab bag of medals for
stuff that noncommissioned guys wouldn't have gotten rewarded for, and
if he would've just fessed up a bit about that he'd look a whole lot
better but now he's the war hero who's going to get the other war hero's
of hollywood, Europe and the UN to cover our asses, covet our assets, or
whatever, they call all his post modern appeasement politics.
Mark

If what you say is true he would qualify for VA medical care.

[mark goldberg]

Post by Earl Camembert
If what you say is true he would qualify for VA medical care.

I meant to ask why... I didn't I will when he calls next week.
But there was a reason, and he told me long ago, and I can't remember.

But he's an honorable guy... you don't sound much like one.

Mark

[mark goldberg]

Post by Chas
I don't like Kerry for a lot of reasons, not the least his traitorous
activity during the SEAsian War- his medal controversy pales next some of
his other bullshit.
Chas

Most writers are saying, things to the effect that it's far from clear
why George W. Bush's poll numbers have been rising while he's facing the
worst barrage of criticism of his "war presidency,"
and as Jonah Goldberg writes "... but I can't help but think that it's
partly because he calls himself a war president at a time when Americans
realize they need one. John Kerry may be qualified in all sorts of ways,
but it's clear that, since he returned from Vietnam, the one thing he
hasn't prepared for is to be "war president."

Mark

[Earl Camembert]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 01:07:02 GMT, mark goldberg

Post by mark goldberg

Post by Chas
I don't like Kerry for a lot of reasons, not the least his traitorous
activity during the SEAsian War- his medal controversy pales next some of
his other bullshit.
Chas

Most writers are saying, things to the effect that it's far from clear
why George W. Bush's poll numbers have been rising while he's facing the
worst barrage of criticism of his "war presidency,"
and as Jonah Goldberg writes "... but I can't help but think that it's
partly because he calls himself a war president at a time when Americans
realize they need one. John Kerry may be qualified in all sorts of ways,
but it's clear that, since he returned from Vietnam, the one thing he
hasn't prepared for is to be "war president."
Mark

Bush has mucho money for negitave campagine ads.

[mark goldberg]

Post by Earl Camembert
Bush has mucho money for negitave campagine ads.

yeah?
What the hell does that have to do with what I posted...?

Mark

[mark goldberg]

Post by Mike Sigman
Sheesh..... FOUR FREAKIN' MONTHS!!!!!! What an absolute obvious crock of
complete shit. It's so absurd it's not even funny. It figures that his
next step was a liberal Democrat in the Senate.
Mike

I remember meeting a guy, who told me of his Vietnam service. He was a
guy who they dropped behind enemy lines, who had to go retrieve downed
pilots, and such. I don't remember the details, it was a long time ago.
But he had to kill, and he was wounded twice, and he lost a retrieved
guy who died, I think he said, after they got him out.

I remember asking about those two years, and all the medals he got.
He looked at me and said... I never asked for any, or something like
that. I think he got a purple heart or something but he had no desire to
dwell on that as I remember.

Mark

[screedmonkey]

Post by mark goldberg

Post by Mike Sigman
Sheesh..... FOUR FREAKIN' MONTHS!!!!!! What an absolute obvious crock of
complete shit. It's so absurd it's not even funny. It figures that his
next step was a liberal Democrat in the Senate.
Mike

I remember meeting a guy, who told me of his Vietnam service. He was a
guy who they dropped behind enemy lines, who had to go retrieve downed
pilots, and such. I don't remember the details, it was a long time ago.
But he had to kill, and he was wounded twice, and he lost a retrieved
guy who died, I think he said, after they got him out.
I remember asking about those two years, and all the medals he got.
He looked at me and said... I never asked for any, or something like
that. I think he got a purple heart or something but he had no desire to
dwell on that as I remember.
Mark

sigman, I fucking hate revisionists

[Steve Perry]

Post by Mike Sigman
Records on medals spark questions
By Charles Hurt
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
The military records that Sen. John Kerry posted on his Web site yesterday
raise new questions about the actions he took to earn several prestigious
war medals and whether he deserved them.
The Navy awarded Mr. Kerry three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and a
Bronze Star in just four months of commanding a gunboat along rivers in
Vietnam. It's an extraordinary record, say many veterans, and one that
raises questions on its face.

Once again, you pays your money and you takes your choice -- Washington
Times, or the AP:

Associated Press:


WASHINGTON -- Records of John Kerry's Vietnam War service released
Wednesday show a highly praised naval officer who volunteered for a
dangerous assignment and at one point was "unofficially credited with
20 enemy killed in action."

With conservative critics questioning his service, the Democratic
presidential candidate posted more than 120 pages of military records
on his campaign Web site. Several describe him as a gutsy commander and
detail some of the actions that won him three Purple Hearts, a Bronze
Star and a Silver Star.

Kerry's most harrowing experience came during the nearly five months
when he commanded a swiftboat along Vietnam's Mekong Delta.

The future Massachusetts senator was commended for gallantry, heroism
and valor during the tour, which was cut short when Kerry was wounded
three times and sent back to the United States.

"He frequently exhibited a high sense of imagination and judgment in
planning operations against the enemy in the Mekong Delta," wrote Lt.
Cmdr. George Elliott, Kerry's commanding officer. "Involved in several
enemy initiated fire fights, ... he effectively suppressed enemy fire
and is unofficially credited with 20 enemy killed in action."

Talk radio conservatives and some veterans have questioned whether
Kerry was wounded severely enough to leave combat, but Democratic
National Committee Chairman Terry McAuliffe said he is eager to compare
Kerry's record to President Bush's.

"Simply put, Kerry has a proud record of sacrifice and service whereas
Bush has a record of cashed-in connections and evasion," McAuliffe
said.

Kerry volunteered to command a swiftboat, a 50-foot craft that could
operate at high speeds in the rough waters of Vietnam's rivers.

On Feb. 28, 1969, Kerry's and two other boats came under heavy fire
from the riverbanks. Kerry ordered his units to turn into the ambush
and sent men ashore to charge the enemy. According to the records, an
enemy soldier holding a loaded rocket launcher sprang up within 10 feet
of Kerry's boat and fled. Kerry leapt ashore, chased and killed the
man.

Kerry and his men chased or killed all enemy soldiers in the area,
captured enemy weapons and returned to the boat only to come under fire
from the opposite bank as they began to pull away.

Kerry again beached his boat and led a party ashore to pursue the
enemy, and they successfully silenced the shooting. Later, with the
boats again under fire, Kerry initiated a heavy response that killed 10
Viet Cong and wounded another with no casualties to his own men.

He won the Silver Star "for gallantry and intrepidity in action" that
day. Two weeks later, another fire fight led to a Bronze Star for
heroic achievement and the third Purple Heart that would result in his
reassignment out of Vietnam.

[Mike Sigman]

Post by Steve Perry

Post by Mike Sigman
Records on medals spark questions
By Charles Hurt
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
The military records that Sen. John Kerry posted on his Web site yesterday
raise new questions about the actions he took to earn several prestigious
war medals and whether he deserved them.
The Navy awarded Mr. Kerry three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and a
Bronze Star in just four months of commanding a gunboat along rivers in
Vietnam. It's an extraordinary record, say many veterans, and one that
raises questions on its face.

Once again, you pays your money and you takes your choice -- Washington

Good idea. The notoriously liberal AP seems to draw its full story from the
medal "recommendations" that the Kerry campaign posted. Show me where the
AP mentions that Kerry only spent 4 months in Viet Nam.... a datum that
every liberal news outlet has been loathe to report.

Post by Steve Perry
WASHINGTON -- Records of John Kerry's Vietnam War service released
Wednesday show a highly praised naval officer who volunteered for a
dangerous assignment and at one point was "unofficially credited with
20 enemy killed in action."

"Unofficially credited"???????? What does that mean??????? I NEVER saw
anything like that.

Post by Steve Perry
With conservative critics questioning his service, the Democratic
presidential candidate posted more than 120 pages of military records
on his campaign Web site. Several describe him as a gutsy commander and
detail some of the actions that won him three Purple Hearts, a Bronze
Star and a Silver Star.
Kerry's most harrowing experience came during the nearly five months
when he commanded a swiftboat along Vietnam's Mekong Delta.

He actually commanded several different boats and that's a simple research
fact that the reporter seems to overlook because this whole story is based
on what Kerry posted about himself.

Post by Steve Perry
The future Massachusetts senator was commended for gallantry, heroism
and valor during the tour, which was cut short when Kerry was wounded
three times and sent back to the United States.

WHEN KERRY WAS WOUNDED THREE TIMES AND ***SENT*** BACK TO THE US??????? He
*claimed* 3 purple hearts and ***REQUESTED*** an early out!!!! That's on
the record in *numerous* sources.

Post by Steve Perry
"He frequently exhibited a high sense of imagination and judgment in
planning operations against the enemy in the Mekong Delta," wrote Lt.
Cmdr. George Elliott, Kerry's commanding officer. "Involved in several
enemy initiated fire fights, ... he effectively suppressed enemy fire
and is unofficially credited with 20 enemy killed in action."
Talk radio conservatives and some veterans have questioned whether
Kerry was wounded severely enough to leave combat, but Democratic
National Committee Chairman Terry McAuliffe said he is eager to compare
Kerry's record to President Bush's.

In other words, they're scared to death and now we all know why Kerry has
sat mum while all this talk about him being a "hero" has gone on.

Post by Steve Perry
"Simply put, Kerry has a proud record of sacrifice and service whereas
Bush has a record of cashed-in connections and evasion," McAuliffe
said.

Now *there's* an impartial source for you, Steve. Thanks for pointing it
out. The guy who defended Clinton every step of the way is now defending
Kerry.

Post by Steve Perry
Kerry volunteered to command a swiftboat, a 50-foot craft that could
operate at high speeds in the rough waters of Vietnam's rivers.
On Feb. 28, 1969, Kerry's and two other boats came under heavy fire
from the riverbanks. Kerry ordered his units to turn into the ambush
and sent men ashore to charge the enemy. According to the records, an
enemy soldier holding a loaded rocket launcher sprang up within 10 feet
of Kerry's boat and fled. Kerry leapt ashore, chased and killed the
man.

It's already been reported by one of Kerry's shipmates that there was an
enemy who the gunner shot at with a .50 caliber machine gun and
***WOUNDED*** ran behind a hootch and Kerry chased him back there and
"dispatched" him. When it was pointed out that such an action would be a
war crime, the story changed to the enemy being armed with a rocket launcher
and aimed it at the boat. One crew member ducks the story every time and
says he didn't see it.

Post by Steve Perry
Kerry and his men chased or killed all enemy soldiers in the area,
captured enemy weapons and returned to the boat only to come under fire
from the opposite bank as they began to pull away.
Kerry again beached his boat and led a party ashore to pursue the
enemy, and they successfully silenced the shooting. Later, with the
boats again under fire, Kerry initiated a heavy response that killed 10
Viet Cong and wounded another with no casualties to his own men.
He won the Silver Star "for gallantry and intrepidity in action" that
day. Two weeks later, another fire fight led to a Bronze Star for
heroic achievement and the third Purple Heart that would result in his
reassignment out of Vietnam.

If all these heroic deeds, these ones that are posted on Kerry's website,
are true, Steve... why is Kerry hiding other parts of his records about the
same deeds??????

Mike

[Steve Perry]

Post by Mike Sigman
If all these heroic deeds, these ones that are posted on Kerry's website,
are true, Steve... why is Kerry hiding other parts of his records about the
same deeds??????
Mike

Mike --

I didn't say they were all true -- I merely pointed out that the
reports are conflicting. One report says hero, the other squints a
gimlet eye. The old adage of not believing anything that you read, and
only half of what you see applies. Once upon a time, I studied
journalism, and I've written for a few newspapers, and I know that
slants and spins are the orders of the day, even when you don't do them
consciously.

Of course any candidate running for anything is going to post stuff
that makes him look good. What else?

As for why Kerry is hiding stuff, if he indeed is, I can't imagine that
some enterprising Republican journalist -- yeah, there are are some --
won't figure out a way to get his hands on these unreleased records,
and if there is a smoking gun, show it. All of the news media aren't
liberal (and in fact, many, if not most, of the newspapers, radio, and
TV stations in the U.S. are owned by conservatives.)

Either nobody has figured out a way to ferret out the information, or
they have -- and there isn't a smoking gun there.

If what you mean to point up is that what somebody did thirty years ago
goes to present character, then it's probably likely that neither of
the big candidates want people looking too closely at the old days. I
wouldn't like to have a bright light shined on everything I did when I
was young and stupid, either.

However Mickey Mouse Kerry's service might have been, it wasn't any
more so than Bush's, and however fast he came home, Kerry did go and
was shot at while Bush was attending political dinners and fundraisers
back in the states. When you compare military records, Kerry beats
Bush. Let it go. It's history.

[Mike Sigman]

Post by Steve Perry

Post by Mike Sigman
If all these heroic deeds, these ones that are posted on Kerry's website,
are true, Steve... why is Kerry hiding other parts of his records about the
same deeds??????
Mike

Mike --
I didn't say they were all true -- I merely pointed out that the
reports are conflicting. One report says hero, the other squints a
gimlet eye. The old adage of not believing anything that you read, and
only half of what you see applies. Once upon a time, I studied
journalism, and I've written for a few newspapers, and I know that
slants and spins are the orders of the day, even when you don't do them
consciously.

Yeah, well I didn't study journalism (it was completely full of fanatic
long-hairs) but I DID go to Viet Nam and the ***SPIN*** was obvious when
Kerry shows up with 3 purple hearts, a Silver Star, and a Bronze Star in 4
months. If you had been there you'd know that there's something VERY rotten
going on just from hearing that one description. This is different from
missing some Guard meetings.... this is rotten. If I'd pulled that
bullshit and I later wound up running for president, I'd have NEVER let that
ever become a "talking point" because I'd be smart enough to know that all
the real heroes who were really in the hard fights would know right away
that I was a fake. That's how dumb he was to do this.

Post by Steve Perry
Of course any candidate running for anything is going to post stuff
that makes him look good. What else?

But only a dumb candidate would post stuff that he knows will come back to
haunt him. It shows what he thinks of the the real heroes in the military,
immediately. But you don't understand that, do you?

Post by Steve Perry
As for why Kerry is hiding stuff, if he indeed is, I can't imagine that
some enterprising Republican journalist -- yeah, there are are some --
won't figure out a way to get his hands on these unreleased records,
and if there is a smoking gun, show it. All of the news media aren't
liberal (and in fact, many, if not most, of the newspapers, radio, and
TV stations in the U.S. are owned by conservatives.)

You're LOOKING at the smoking gun, Steve. NOBODY legitimately got all those
medals in 4 months and never had a day off for his wounds!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Steve Perry
However Mickey Mouse Kerry's service might have been, it wasn't any
more so than Bush's, and however fast he came home, Kerry did go and
was shot at while Bush was attending political dinners and fundraisers
back in the states. When you compare military records, Kerry beats
Bush. Let it go. It's history.

Oh..... now that the heater is applied to Kerry, it's suddenly "let's let
bygones be", eh? Do you smell that whiff of hypocrisy??? Where were all
the Democrats saying "let's let bygones be" when they were trying to
muckrake Bush? You know... the guy who opened ALL his records.

Mike

[Mike Sigman]

Discrepancies noted in Kerry's record
Ex-skipper says website wrong
By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff | April 23, 2004
WASHINGTON -- Vietnam combat records posted on John F. Kerry's campaign
website for the month of January 1969 as evidence of his service aboard
swift boat No. 94 describe action that occurred before Kerry was skipper of
that craft, according to the officer who said he commanded the boat at the
time.

On the site, the Massachusetts senator is described as the skipper of Navy
boat No. 94 during several actions in late January 1969.
However, Edward Peck, who was the skipper of the 94 before Kerry took over,
said combat reports posted by the campaign for January 1969 involve action
when he was the skipper, not Kerry. Peck, who was seriously wounded in
fighting that took place on Jan. 29, 1969, said he believes Kerry campaign
aides made a mistake in claiming Kerry as skipper of the 94 at that time.

On the Kerry website, the report of the combat on that day on the 94 boat is
posted as occurring during Kerry's time as skipper of the boat. Peck said
Kerry replaced him after the Jan. 29, 1969, event.
"Those are definitely mine," Peck said, referring to the combat reports that
the Kerry campaign posted as representing Kerry's action. "There is no doubt
about it."
A Kerry campaign spokesman, Michael Meehan, said in an e-mail that the
campaign had obtained the combat reports for the 94 from the Navy. He did
not directly address the question of why the campaign describes Kerry being
skipper of the 94 at a time when Peck says he commanded the boat.
The reports at issue are in a 20-page batch representing Kerry's combat in
January 1969. The reports include references to some dramatic action,
including an ambush of Patrol Craft Fast, or PCF, 94. In addition to posting
the information online, the campaign sent out an e-mail yesterday afternoon
repeating the claim that Kerry was the skipper of the 94 boat throughout
January and describing action the campaign said Kerry experienced while
commanding the craft.
For example, in a summary of action that occurred Jan. 26, 1969, the
campaign says Kerry served on boat No. 94 alongside another boat, No. 66.
"PCFs 94 and 66 escorted troops up the Ong Doc River early in the morning
when they were ambushed by gun and rocket fire from approximately 40 men on
both sides of the river," the campaign summary says. "Two B-40 rounds hit
close to Kerry's boat, while PCF 66 received 2 B-40 rocket hits. Three men
on PCF66 were wounded. A junk containing South Vietnamese troops was also
sunk, killing 11 South Vietnamese troops. Intelligence reports after the
mission indicated that the Viet Cong troops may have planned the ambush in
advance."
Peck said he was the skipper of the 94 at this time and that Kerry was not
on the craft. While combat reports show several boats traveling with the 94,
the campaign website says only that Kerry was the skipper of the 94 and does
not try to place him on the other boats.
In another report, the campaign summarizes action that took place on Jan.
29, 1969, this way: "While Kerry's boat and another [PCF72] were probing a
canal along the river, Kerry's boat came under heavy fire and was hit by a
B-40 rocket in the cabin area. One member of Kerry's crew -- Forward Gunner
David Alston -- suffered shrapnel wounds in his head. His injuries were not
considered serious and he was sent to the 29th Evac Hospital at Binh Thuy."
Peck said he was the skipper on this day as well. Peck was also injured in
the ambush and was hospitalized.
As a result, Kerry then took over the crew, Peck said. The Navy combat
report posted by the Kerry campaign states that Peck and Alston were injured
in the same event. There is no mention of Kerry in that report.
Kerry's commanding officer, George Elliott, said in a telephone interview
that he vividly recalls Peck's injury and hospitalization and Kerry's
replacement of Peck. "I think somebody made a mistake who doesn't know" the
timing of Kerry's service, Elliott said. Kerry was skipper of boat No. 44 in
December and January before taking over command of the 94, he said.
Michael Kranish can be reached by e-mail at ***@globe.com.

[h***@nospam.com]

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:13:38 -0600, "Mike Sigman"

Post by Mike Sigman
Discrepancies noted in Kerry's record
Ex-skipper says website wrong
By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff | April 23, 2004
WASHINGTON -- Vietnam combat records posted on John F. Kerry's campaign
website for the month of January 1969 as evidence of his service aboard
swift boat No. 94 describe action that occurred before Kerry was skipper of
that craft, according to the officer who said he commanded the boat at the
time.

Well that would be easy enough to confirm if you had any agenda other
than defaming Kerry. If it is not correct, perhaps it was just a typo
from a minimum wage data entry op building the web site and not a
"fabrication" as you must presume.

Fact is, 9 out of 10 of the Navy veterans who served under Kerry
during Vietnam support him fully, and have publically stated that he
is a good man, and a good leader. The only exception is a clearly
bitter Gunners Mate 3rd class with an apparent bone to pick, and
bitter about everything military or authority related.

Hal

[Mike Sigman]

Post by h***@nospam.com
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:13:38 -0600, "Mike Sigman"

Post by Mike Sigman
Discrepancies noted in Kerry's record
Ex-skipper says website wrong
By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff | April 23, 2004
WASHINGTON -- Vietnam combat records posted on John F. Kerry's campaign
website for the month of January 1969 as evidence of his service aboard
swift boat No. 94 describe action that occurred before Kerry was skipper of
that craft, according to the officer who said he commanded the boat at the
time.

Well that would be easy enough to confirm if you had any agenda other
than defaming Kerry. If it is not correct, perhaps it was just a typo
from a minimum wage data entry op building the web site and not a
"fabrication" as you must presume.
Fact is, 9 out of 10 of the Navy veterans who served under Kerry
during Vietnam support him fully, and have publically stated that he
is a good man, and a good leader. The only exception is a clearly
bitter Gunners Mate 3rd class with an apparent bone to pick, and
bitter about everything military or authority related.

Er, what about his commanding officer's story, Hal???? The one where the
crew did NOT support Kerry's contention that they came under enemy fire, yet
Kerry wanted a purple heart for a "fingernail scratch" on his arm? The
record shows that they didn't support him on that one. What do you say,
other than some lame rationalizations about the "GOP" and "Right Wing
Conspiracy"? In that case 10 out of 10 did NOT support him.

Mike

[h***@nospam.com]

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 16:07:43 -0600, "Mike Sigman"

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by h***@nospam.com
On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:13:38 -0600, "Mike Sigman"

Post by Mike Sigman
Discrepancies noted in Kerry's record
Ex-skipper says website wrong
By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff | April 23, 2004
WASHINGTON -- Vietnam combat records posted on John F. Kerry's campaign
website for the month of January 1969 as evidence of his service aboard
swift boat No. 94 describe action that occurred before Kerry was skipper

of

Post by h***@nospam.com

Post by Mike Sigman
that craft, according to the officer who said he commanded the boat at

the

Post by h***@nospam.com

Post by Mike Sigman
time.

Well that would be easy enough to confirm if you had any agenda other
than defaming Kerry. If it is not correct, perhaps it was just a typo
from a minimum wage data entry op building the web site and not a
"fabrication" as you must presume.
Fact is, 9 out of 10 of the Navy veterans who served under Kerry
during Vietnam support him fully, and have publically stated that he
is a good man, and a good leader. The only exception is a clearly
bitter Gunners Mate 3rd class with an apparent bone to pick, and
bitter about everything military or authority related.

Er, what about his commanding officer's story, Hal????

A member of the armed forces would NOT get a commendation without the
recommendation of his CO. You know how it works. Just sounds like
more lies to me. You want to talk about lies on military records, how
come you never post any complaints about Bush's record? While you and
Kerry were serving in Vietnam, George Bush had a cushy statesite NG
flight school, then failed to fill his commitment to his nation.

At least Kerry served. Served in combat, and showed good leadership
skills and military record. Has the support of the vast majority of
his men. More than we can say about Bush.

Hal

Post by Mike Sigman
The one where the
crew did NOT support Kerry's contention that they came under enemy fire, yet
Kerry wanted a purple heart for a "fingernail scratch" on his arm? The
record shows that they didn't support him on that one. What do you say,
other than some lame rationalizations about the "GOP" and "Right Wing
Conspiracy"? In that case 10 out of 10 did NOT support him.
Mike

[Mike Sigman]

Post by h***@nospam.com
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 16:07:43 -0600, "Mike Sigman"

Post by Mike Sigman
Er, what about his commanding officer's story, Hal????

A member of the armed forces would NOT get a commendation without the
recommendation of his CO. You know how it works. Just sounds like
more lies to me. You want to talk about lies on military records, how
come you never post any complaints about Bush's record?

Excuse me? Why is it every time something bad about Kerry comes up, the
liberals immediately try to change the subject to "Bush"? Is this the
'moral superiority' of the feeling class, I've heard so much about?

Post by h***@nospam.com
At least Kerry served. Served in combat, and showed good leadership
skills and military record. Has the support of the vast majority of
his men. More than we can say about Bush.

Bush has the support of the country... guess who was elected, despite the
attempts by Gore and the Florida State Supreme Democrat Court?


Mike

[h***@nospam.net]

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 08:44:58 -0600, "Mike Sigman"

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by h***@nospam.com
On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 16:07:43 -0600, "Mike Sigman"

Post by Mike Sigman
Er, what about his commanding officer's story, Hal????

A member of the armed forces would NOT get a commendation without the
recommendation of his CO. You know how it works. Just sounds like
more lies to me. You want to talk about lies on military records, how
come you never post any complaints about Bush's record?

Excuse me? Why is it every time something bad about Kerry comes up, the
liberals immediately try to change the subject to "Bush"? Is this the
'moral superiority' of the feeling class, I've heard so much about?

Because none of the lies about Kerry have been verifiably documented.
The record on Bush is very clear: there are huge gaps completely
unaccounted for, and he was released from flight status for failing to
show up for his physical.

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by h***@nospam.com
At least Kerry served. Served in combat, and showed good leadership
skills and military record. Has the support of the vast majority of
his men. More than we can say about Bush.

Bush has the support of the country... guess who was elected, despite the
attempts by Gore and the Florida State Supreme Democrat Court?

He was not elected. He was appointed by the conservative Supreme
Court. Gore won the popular election and should have been president.
Bush has done more to bitterly divide this nation than any man in
recent history.

Hal

Post by Mike Sigman
Mike

[Shuurai]

Post by h***@nospam.net

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by h***@nospam.com

Post by Mike Sigman
Er, what about his commanding officer's story, Hal????

A member of the armed forces would NOT get a commendation without the
recommendation of his CO. You know how it works. Just sounds like
more lies to me. You want to talk about lies on military records, how
come you never post any complaints about Bush's record?

Excuse me? Why is it every time something bad about Kerry comes up, the
liberals immediately try to change the subject to "Bush"? Is this the
'moral superiority' of the feeling class, I've heard so much about?

Because none of the lies about Kerry have been verifiably documented.

Much like some of his awards, which is part of the problem.

Post by h***@nospam.net
The record on Bush is very clear: there are huge gaps completely
unaccounted for, and he was released from flight status for failing to
show up for his physical.

All which has been disputed a long time ago.

Post by h***@nospam.net

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by h***@nospam.com
At least Kerry served. Served in combat, and showed good leadership
skills and military record. Has the support of the vast majority of
his men. More than we can say about Bush.

Bush has the support of the country... guess who was elected, despite the
attempts by Gore and the Florida State Supreme Democrat Court?

He was not elected.

Yes, he certainly was.

Post by h***@nospam.net
He was appointed by the conservative Supreme Court.

No, all the Supreme Court did was force an end to the bullshit drama
in Florida. Which, by the way, turned out to be irrelvant since Gore
still lost Florida after all of the recounts; including the recounts
done independently after the election.

In any close election with a large number of votes, routine error can
swing the vote either way. If you have thousands of votes and less
than 1% difference, you could count 10 times and have results on both
sides - especially if you keep changing the way you count. The Gore
team was hoping to get one that declared Gore the winner; and then they'd
immediately proclaim that to be the last, valid count.

The thing about the ballot being confusing was just more bullshit.

Interesting how the Dems wanted to change the way the votes were
tabulated, but not to allow late military votes into the process.

Bush won the vote. Bush won the recount. Bush won the second recount.
All the Supreme Court did is put an end to the bullshit - and rightly so.

Post by h***@nospam.net
Gore won the popular election and should have been president.

The popular vote doesn't determine the winner.

Post by h***@nospam.net
Bush has done more to bitterly divide this nation than any man in
recent history.

The only bitter division I see is between you and reality.

[Chas]

Post by Shuurai
Bush won the vote. Bush won the recount. Bush won the second recount.
All the Supreme Court did is put an end to the bullshit - and rightly so.

And essentially what that means is a President with minimal support for his
policies and philosophy.
Bush won the chance to unite us, or steal as much as he could during the
short opportunity afforded him by a slight win.

Chas

[Mike Sigman]

Post by Chas

Post by Shuurai
Bush won the vote. Bush won the recount. Bush won the second recount.
All the Supreme Court did is put an end to the bullshit - and rightly so.

And essentially what that means is a President with minimal support for his
policies and philosophy.
Bush won the chance to unite us, or steal as much as he could during the
short opportunity afforded him by a slight win.

How do you "unite" a group of which half is composed of liberals and people
who are determined to take the wealth of those that have it? They don't
want to "unite", Chas, they want to win, take the dough, and rub it in.

If Gore had one, could that lame-ass guy who couldn't even win the support
of voters in his home state have "united" us? He couldn't even "unite" his
home state, Chas.

Mike

[Chas]

Post by Mike Sigman
How do you "unite" a group of which half is composed of liberals and people
who are determined to take the wealth of those that have it? They don't
want to "unite", Chas, they want to win, take the dough, and rub it in.

The Republicans give the money to their constituency as well- a much smaller
and more select group of recipients is all.
Of the two, I prefer the ones that do the broadest amount of benefit- it's
the same pool of money after all, and there's no reason to further enrich
the already rich.

Post by Mike Sigman
If Gore had one, could that lame-ass guy who couldn't even win the support
of voters in his home state have "united" us? He couldn't even "unite" his
home state, Chas.

Ahh; you mistake me for a Gore supporter-

Chas

[Mike Sigman]

Post by Steve Perry

Post by Mike Sigman
How do you "unite" a group of which half is composed of liberals and

people

Post by Mike Sigman
who are determined to take the wealth of those that have it? They don't
want to "unite", Chas, they want to win, take the dough, and rub it in.

The Republicans give the money to their constituency as well- a much smaller
and more select group of recipients is all.
Of the two, I prefer the ones that do the broadest amount of benefit- it's
the same pool of money after all, and there's no reason to further enrich
the already rich.

Post by Mike Sigman
If Gore had one, could that lame-ass guy who couldn't even win the support
of voters in his home state have "united" us? He couldn't even "unite"

his

Post by Mike Sigman
home state, Chas.

Ahh; you mistake me for a Gore supporter-

And you, sir, mistake me for someone who cares. :^)

[Pierre Honeyman]

Post by Chas

Post by Shuurai
Bush won the vote. Bush won the recount. Bush won the second recount.
All the Supreme Court did is put an end to the bullshit - and rightly so.

And essentially what that means is a President with minimal support for his
policies and philosophy.
Bush won the chance to unite us, or steal as much as he could during the
short opportunity afforded him by a slight win.

The problem with a "first past the post" system is that you end up
being governed by a party (or parties) that often don't have a
majority of the vote. Here in BC we have a Liberal majority
government, with the Liberals holding 79 out of 81 seats, and the NDP
holding 2 out of 81 - this doesn't even come close to representing the
popular vote.

Pierre

[Chas]

Post by Mike Sigman
Bush has the support of the country... guess who was elected, despite the
attempts by Gore and the Florida State Supreme Democrat Court?

And 50% of the populace voting against him.

Chas

[Mike Sigman]

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
Bush has the support of the country... guess who was elected, despite the
attempts by Gore and the Florida State Supreme Democrat Court?

And 50% of the populace voting against him.

No. Fifty percent of the people who voted in one of the lowest turnout
presidential elections. That is not the populace, Chas.


Mike

[Chas]

Post by Mike Sigman
No. Fifty percent of the people who voted in one of the lowest turnout
presidential elections.

Then don't talk like it was a mandate of some sort.

Chas

[Mike Sigman]

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
No. Fifty percent of the people who voted in one of the lowest turnout
presidential elections.

Then don't talk like it was a mandate of some sort.

I didn't. YOU used the word "populace", thereby stating the facts wrong.

[screedmonkey]

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
No. Fifty percent of the people who voted in one of the lowest turnout
presidential elections.

Then don't talk like it was a mandate of some sort.

I didn't. YOU used the word "populace", thereby stating the facts wrong.

are we backpedaling siggie, so cute when you do that.

[caterbro]

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
Bush has the support of the country... guess who was elected, despite

the

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
attempts by Gore and the Florida State Supreme Democrat Court?

And 50% of the populace voting against him.

No. Fifty percent of the people who voted in one of the lowest turnout
presidential elections. That is not the populace, Chas.

the turnout was an upswing from recent years, but was still very low.
http://mwhodges.home.att.net/voting.htm#trend

gore won the popular vote by less than 1%, 48.4% to 47.9%. assume
that a vote for Nader was a vote against bush, and the popular vote
was decidely against bush, 51.1% to 47.9%

so figure 25.5% percent of the country voted against bush and 23.9%
voted for him.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0876793.html


how are you two old geezers, anyway? :)

carl

Post by Mike Sigman
Mike

[Chas]

Post by caterbro
how are you two old geezers, anyway? :)

bitter, disillusioned and bent on revenge, on my part;
I think Mikey's ok though.

Chas

[Mike Sigman]

Post by Chas

Post by caterbro
how are you two old geezers, anyway? :)

bitter, disillusioned and bent on revenge, on my part;
I think Mikey's ok though.

I'm actually doing the revenge, so I'm happy, forward looking, and got my
golden years ahead of me. I plan to be shot at the age of 106 by an
outraged husband.

Mike

[Mike Sigman]

FROM: THE WHITE HOUSE
TO: Mr. John Hinckley
St. Elizabeth's Hospital
Washington, DC
Laura and I hope that you are continuing your excellent progress in
recovery from your mental problems. We were pleased to hear that you
are
now able to have unsupervised visits with your parents. The staff at
the
hospital reports that you are doing fine.
I have decided to seek a second term in office as your President, and I
would appreciate your support and the support of your fine parents.
I would hope that if there is anything that you need at the hospital,
you would let us know.
By the way, are you aware that John Kerry is screwing Jodie Foster?
Sincerely,
George W. Bush
President of the United States

[Mike Sigman]

Post by caterbro
the turnout was an upswing from recent years, but was still very low.
http://mwhodges.home.att.net/voting.htm#trend

Actually, the vote was the second lowest turnout in recent years.

I think the lowest was in 1996 at 49+% and the 2000 turnout was around 50 or
51%... just above the 1996 low (I think there was a similar low in 1924, if
I remember my reading). What's interesting to note is that the Dem's put
*tremendous* effort into getting out the vote and they even pulled some
illegal bullshit in Missouri and New Jersey and a few other places to stack
the vote... but even with all of that, look at the low turnout. If that's
the best you can do, even when bussing in illiterates, etc., and signing for
them at the booths, what the hell can you do to get even more vote out?

Mike

[Sucka]

Post by caterbro
gore won the popular vote by less than 1%, 48.4% to 47.9%. assume
that a vote for Nader was a vote against bush, and the popular vote
was decidely against bush, 51.1% to 47.9%

Did you factor in Buchanan?

Post by caterbro
so figure 25.5% percent of the country voted against bush and 23.9%
voted for him.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0876793.html

Yes, but the aggregate population count in Bush's counties versus Gore's
counties, natiowide, had Bush representing more people than Gore.

Trav

[Madelin McKinnon]

Kidnapping and Extortion

May 2, 2004

On February 6, 2003, ABC News reported that "Michael Jackson, who was
accused of molesting a 13-year-old boy a decade ago but denied it,
says in a new documentary that he still allows children to sleep over
at his California ranch, Neverland."

ABC News also reported the following. "The boy, who says he met
Jackson after he was diagnosed with terminal cancer, said when he
asked to spend the night in the singer's bedroom, Jackson gave him and
his brother the bed and slept on the floor himself." After extensive
coaching and prompting from a mother who has a history of exploiting
criminal allegations, the boys have a different story to tell, today.
Would you like to hear it? Oh, go ahead and make it up, any cheap
pornographer can easily invent a tawdry tale, the media is good at it.

It was not until May, when the mother of Jackson's accuser met with
Larry Feldman, who'd represented the family in the Jackson case 10
years ago, that accusations of child molestation were made. Needless
to say, the fact that these allegations were such a big secret prior
to May, needs to be explained. Kidnapping, death threats and coercion
are an explanation which suggests that nobody said anything out of
fear for their lives, but the District Attorney must come to grips
with the fact that the explanation has to be reasonable, not
outrageous.

It is quite clear that whoever is coaching the mother in this
transparent scam to extort Michael Jackson is putting a great deal of
thought into explaining away the fact that the family didn't tell
anybody about sexual molestation allegations prior to May, but it
doesn't make any sense to turn around and say that they were kidnapped
to cover up something that was kept secret. Needless to say, this case
is not about making sense. It is about extortion again because as soon
as all the phantom, criminal co-conspirators are lined up and
successfully prosecuted, then Michael Jackson's estate is essentially
the property of civil litigation attorneys. That's the plan, but have
Michael Jackson's accusers bitten off more than they can chew?

The driving force behind this Inquisition is Tom Sneddon, and whether
he is acting on good faith or not, the perpetual vendetta against
Michael Jackson is providing the opportunity to amalgamate the forces
that seek to exploit the opportunity to extort a vulnerable target. On
February 14, 2001, Tom Sneddon said, "The case against Michael Jackson
was never closed, and he was never exonerated. It's in suspended
animation and can be reopened at any time." The Bashir documentary
invariably made Tom Sneddon feel vindicated by what was viewed to be a
tawdry portrayal of Michael Jackson and that set the stage to accept
the open invitation that Sneddon had issued in 1996, when he said,
"the state of the investigation is in suspension until somebody comes
forward and testifies." Tom Sneddon's open invitation is currently
conspiring to pervert justice because it was accepted by those who
have a history of exploiting false criminal allegations. The accuser
appeared on national TV in the Bashir documentary holding hands with
Jackson, who said the two had slept in the same bedroom but not the
same bed. Jackson defended his sleep overs with children, describing
the practice as sweet and innocent. The boy said he had met Jackson
two years earlier and believed the singer's friendship and support had
helped him recover from what doctors had said was terminal cancer and
his parents were happy to let him spend time with Jackson. And now, we
are supposed to believe that the family was not happy, the family was
kidnapped.

Where do you find 12 people to believe that Michael Jackson, who never
touched this cancer victim for over 2 years while he helped him
recover, waited for the Bashir documentary to decide to molest the
kid? The truth of the matter is, the Bashir documentary prompted those
who are inclined to call Michael Jackson a child molester to suggest
the worst and set the stage for the latest extortion effort, but this
scam is way too elaborate to take seriously. The smoke and mirrors
effort to create something out of nothing will never amount to
anything because Michael Jackson is a public figure who leads a public
life and the Bashir Documentary exposed the full extent of Michael
Jackson's so called "weirdness," it did not leave anything for the
imagination of those who are currently seeking to create the
impression that Neverland is Alcatraz with valet parking. The only
hell on earth where Neverland is concerned is created by overbearing
opportunists who overstay their welcome because they are vulgar and
inconsiderate.

The suggestion that anybody has ever been threatened and coerced to
keep them from leaving Neverland is quite amusing, and it makes the
false nature of the sexual molestation charges against Michael
Jackson, very clear. The modus operandi of an overzealous prosecutor
like Ted Sneddon is to put out as wide a net as possible to drag in as
many fish as he can, so that he can work on the opportunity to squeeze
the hell out of them. In the hands of a desperate prosecutor who
cannot prove sexual molestation charges against Michael Jackson,
co-conspiracy charges provide the opportunity that is required to
compensate for sexual molestation allegations that are too weak, to
stand on their own. It's an old trick that is used to squeeze
criminals, but when it is used to target innocent people it is a
repugnant scheme. Clearly, the zeal to destroy Michael Jackson's
friends, simply because Tom Sneddon wants to destroy Michael Jackson,
will never triumph. American soldiers are dying in Iraq as we speak,
to give people the opportunity to be free of evil dictators, free of
celebrity showboat trials, and free of overzealous prosecutors who
make a mockery of the entire justice system.

The Grand Jury indictment said Jackson conspired with "other uncharged
conspirators and co-conspirators," but the judge ordered that the
parts of the indictment identifying them be removed before it was
publicly released. What's the big secret? It is not even remotely
plausible to cover up a scam that is so absolutely transparent, that
not even Grand Jury secrecy will grant Tom Sneddon the competitive
advantage he seeks. This game is over, and if Tom Sneddon is deluded
enough to think that he is a serious player of his perpetual effort to
"drive the weirdo out of town" nothing has changed.

Why is the Grand Jury beating around the bush, we all know who the
co-conspirators are. Anybody who is in a position to prove that
Michael Jackson is innocent, is supposed to be an evil,
co-conspirator. It's like the insanity that surrounds the Laci
Peterson case. Anybody who saw Laci walking the dog is either wrong,
stupid, crazy or dead.

What Tom Sneddon is trying to do, to create the impression that
Michael Jackson is a mastermind kidnapper is to cultivate somebody
called an unindicted co-conspirator. It's a neat trick. All Tom has to
do is to find somebody he can intimidate, threaten to lock him away
for life if he doesn't cooperate, and grant him immunity, formal or
otherwise, if he suggests that Michael Jackson conspired to coerce the
person he allegedly molested. Some trick, huh? Tom Sneddon wants us to
think that Michael Jackson used people like Frank Tyson and Vinnie
Amen, to coerce a mother and her children to the point where they were
afraid to reveal that Michael Jackson had sexually molested her son.
The problem is, the women and her sons are tripping all over their
lies in the process, because in effort to feign credibility the first
time around, she had said that she was unaware of any sexual abuse
allegations until a therapist brought them to her attention. So you
see, Tom Sneddon make these bizarre, kidnapping and coercion
allegations sound credible, because if the sexual assault allegations
were such a well kept secret, there was no reason to coerce anybody.

This case is too weird because it is not Michael Jackson but Tom
Sneddon who obstructs justice when he routinely targets anybody who is
in a position to disprove the fraudulent claim that Michael jackson
molested 12 year old Gavin Arvizo. Fortunately, for Michael Jackson,
he keeps good company, and that is making Tom Sneddon's job very, very
difficult. In particular, the two young college students who will
invariably be targeted because they essentially expose the fraud
behind Tom Sneddon's fraudulent allegations. Clearly, Frank Tyson and
Vincent Amen are not coercive, extortionists. Frank Tyson and Vincent
Amen, who watched over the family involved in the child molestation
charges, are just two, laid back, 23-year old college students who
were made weary by an overbearing guest at Neverland Ranch. The mother
of Jackson's accusers thought that Michael Jackson's "help" was her
own, and Amen, who was Tyson's college buddy and wanted to work in
video and music, was about to be made weary by the mother of Michael
Jackson's accuser. The demanding opportunist with the imposing
personality treated Amen and Tyson like her personal babysitters and
chauffeurs and she had clear expectations about exploiting Michael
Jackson as evidenced by her anger over her view that the pop star had
let her down because she claimed that "Michael promised he'd make my
kids stars." Is that why her son was "exposed" in the Bashir
documentary? And we are supposed to think that he was a kidnapped
victim who was subject to coercion? If Tom Sneddon proves that, he is
probably going to be the next President of the United States.

The claim that the family was held against their will at Neverland is
very cute because the boys mother routinely abandoned her children,
forcing the college students, Frank Tyson and Vincent Amen, to babysit
while she socialized or went out with her boyfriend, Army Reserves
Major Jay Jackson. If this mother was kidnapped, why didn't Army
Reserves Major Jay Jackson, save her, or is he also a part of this
elaborate scheme to destroy Michael Jackson? Clearly, one has to be
literally brain-dead, to believe that Michael Jackson or any of his
supporters, conspired to kidnap a woman who abandoned her children at
Neverland Ranch because she is a selfish, unfit mother who should be
in jail for her participation in this illegal, covert scheme to extort
Michael Jackson.

No self-respecting authority would embrace this scam. Tom Sneddon
abuses the dignity of his office by upping the ante to add creedence
to transparent lies through the addition of "28 overt act charges"
that are supposed to create the impression that lunatic charges are
serious. At this point in time, it would be a huge revelation to learn
that Tom Sneddon is smart enough to be able to count to 10, let alone
produce 28 relevant allegations. The conspiracy count which alleges 28
individual overt acts involving child abduction, false imprisonment
and extortion, is too stupid to take seriously, whether it is
protected by Grand Jury secrecy or not. Indeed, publicizing the
details will merely flesh out the illegal plot to destroy Michael
Jackson. The effort to create the impression that sexual molestation
charges against Michael Jackson, is not washing. We did not have to
read the Starr Report to figure out the fact that Ken Starr was an
overzealous crackpot, and the same goes for the so called 28 overt
acts, that are making Tom Sneddon's supporters salivate. Clearly, the
mother of the accuser had claimed that even she was not aware of
sexual molestation charges against Michael Jackson, prior to May, and
the claim that she was kidnapped to keep her from talking about
something that she did not even know about, is as stupid as they come.

All nonsense aside, Tom Mesereau put it best, when he said, "this case
is about one thing only. It's about the dignity, the integrity, the
decency, the honor, the charity, the innocence and the complete
vindication of a wonderful human being named Michael Jackson." If the
other Tom thinks he can vindicate SneddonStory through preposterous
allegations, he is wrong. Those who currently claim that Michael
Jackson will be acquitted of the molestation charges but will be
convicted of conspiring to abduct the child and his family, falsely
imprison them and commit extortion by threatening grave consequences
if they accused him, are living in Neverland. Tom Sneddon can offer
the Pope immunity to testify for the prosecution, but in the final
analysis, he ought to be very careful because he is jeopardizing the
integrity of "state's evidence" the very same way that Ken Starr
destroyed the Independent Counsel Statute.

http://www.geocities.com/bobnevin/extort.htm

[Shuurai]

Post by Steve Perry
Once again, you pays your money and you takes your choice -- Washington
WASHINGTON -- Records of John Kerry's Vietnam War service released
Wednesday show a highly praised naval officer who volunteered for a
dangerous assignment and at one point was "unofficially credited with
20 enemy killed in action."

Oddly enough though, at least half the people they can find who served
with Kerry contradict this account.

[kalis]

"Mike Sigman" <***@bresnan.net> wrote in message
<snipped>

Gee Mike, the poor guy gets shrapnel in his leg, his arm and his ass
in order to save a guy during a firefight and all's you can do is
complain that he got a bigger cookie than you?
Grow a brain.

Mike

[Mike Sigman]

Post by kalis
<snipped>
Gee Mike, the poor guy gets shrapnel in his leg, his arm and his ass
in order to save a guy during a firefight and all's you can do is
complain that he got a bigger cookie than you?
Grow a brain.

Er, did you miss the first article where Kerry's first "purple heart" was
during a cruise where the entire crew said they didn't come under fire?
Apparently both you and Kerry saw some firefight no one else did.

Mike

[kalis]

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by kalis
<snipped>
Gee Mike, the poor guy gets shrapnel in his leg, his arm and his ass
in order to save a guy during a firefight and all's you can do is
complain that he got a bigger cookie than you?
Grow a brain.

Er, did you miss the first article where Kerry's first "purple heart" was
during a cruise where the entire crew said they didn't come under fire?
Apparently both you and Kerry saw some firefight no one else did.
Mike

First? Second? Third? Irrelevent. He saved a guys life in the heat
of a battle. He's a war hero Mike and you're just going to have to
live with that fact buddy.

Mike

[Mike Sigman]

Post by kalis

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by kalis
<snipped>
Gee Mike, the poor guy gets shrapnel in his leg, his arm and his ass
in order to save a guy during a firefight and all's you can do is
complain that he got a bigger cookie than you?
Grow a brain.

Er, did you miss the first article where Kerry's first "purple heart" was
during a cruise where the entire crew said they didn't come under fire?
Apparently both you and Kerry saw some firefight no one else did.
Mike

First? Second? Third? Irrelevent. He saved a guys life in the heat
of a battle. He's a war hero Mike and you're just going to have to
live with that fact buddy.

What are you, a half-wit? Based on the first version of the story *he put
out* where he chased the enemy guy (they tend to be about as big as 14-year
old caucasians) behind a hootch and shot, he's a war criminal. But then,
the "anybody but Bush" non-thinkers don't really care about details, do
they????

Mike

[screedmonkey]

Mike Sigman wrote:

translated losely; I am a traitor, send my clueless ass to cuba.
Sigman you clueless fuckwit, shut up.

[kalis]

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by kalis

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by kalis
<snipped>
Gee Mike, the poor guy gets shrapnel in his leg, his arm and his ass
in order to save a guy during a firefight and all's you can do is
complain that he got a bigger cookie than you?
Grow a brain.

Er, did you miss the first article where Kerry's first "purple heart"

was

Post by kalis

Post by Mike Sigman
during a cruise where the entire crew said they didn't come under fire?
Apparently both you and Kerry saw some firefight no one else did.
Mike

First? Second? Third? Irrelevent. He saved a guys life in the heat
of a battle. He's a war hero Mike and you're just going to have to
live with that fact buddy.

What are you, a half-wit? Based on the first version of the story *he put
out* where he chased the enemy guy (they tend to be about as big as 14-year
old caucasians) behind a hootch and shot, he's a war criminal. But then,
the "anybody but Bush" non-thinkers don't really care about details, do
they????

Handing down criminal sanctions for being too rough on the enemy
during Vietnam would be like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy
500.

Mike

[Mike Sigman]

Post by kalis

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by kalis

Post by Mike Sigman
Er, did you miss the first article where Kerry's first "purple heart"

was

Post by kalis

Post by Mike Sigman
during a cruise where the entire crew said they didn't come under fire?
Apparently both you and Kerry saw some firefight no one else did.
Mike

First? Second? Third? Irrelevent. He saved a guys life in the heat
of a battle. He's a war hero Mike and you're just going to have to
live with that fact buddy.

What are you, a half-wit? Based on the first version of the story *he put
out* where he chased the enemy guy (they tend to be about as big as 14-year
old caucasians) behind a hootch and shot, he's a war criminal. But then,
the "anybody but Bush" non-thinkers don't really care about details, do
they????

Handing down criminal sanctions for being too rough on the enemy
during Vietnam would be like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy
500.

Unless, of course, he had been a Republican, right? You guys don't care
about the country going to hell, you just want to be sure a Democrat is the
one driving. Deep thinkers.

Mike

[kalis]

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by kalis

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by kalis

Post by Mike Sigman
Er, did you miss the first article where Kerry's first "purple

heart"
was

Post by kalis

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by kalis

Post by Mike Sigman
during a cruise where the entire crew said they didn't come under

fire?

Post by kalis

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by kalis

Post by Mike Sigman
Apparently both you and Kerry saw some firefight no one else did.
Mike

First? Second? Third? Irrelevent. He saved a guys life in the heat
of a battle. He's a war hero Mike and you're just going to have to
live with that fact buddy.

What are you, a half-wit? Based on the first version of the story *he

put

Post by kalis

Post by Mike Sigman
out* where he chased the enemy guy (they tend to be about as big as

14-year

Post by kalis

Post by Mike Sigman
old caucasians) behind a hootch and shot, he's a war criminal. But

then,

Post by kalis

Post by Mike Sigman
the "anybody but Bush" non-thinkers don't really care about details, do
they????

Handing down criminal sanctions for being too rough on the enemy
during Vietnam would be like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy
500.

Unless, of course, he had been a Republican, right?

Nah. The Repub wouldn't have even showed up to fight.
heh

Mike

[h***@nospam.com]

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 07:07:28 -0600, "Mike Sigman"

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by kalis

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by kalis
<snipped>
Gee Mike, the poor guy gets shrapnel in his leg, his arm and his ass
in order to save a guy during a firefight and all's you can do is
complain that he got a bigger cookie than you?
Grow a brain.

Er, did you miss the first article where Kerry's first "purple heart"

was

Post by kalis

Post by Mike Sigman
during a cruise where the entire crew said they didn't come under fire?
Apparently both you and Kerry saw some firefight no one else did.
Mike

First? Second? Third? Irrelevent. He saved a guys life in the heat
of a battle. He's a war hero Mike and you're just going to have to
live with that fact buddy.

What are you, a half-wit? Based on the first version of the story *he put
out* where he chased the enemy guy (they tend to be about as big as 14-year
old caucasians) behind a hootch and shot, he's a war criminal. But then,
the "anybody but Bush" non-thinkers don't really care about details, do
they????

Whoa, let me get this straight: a hate filled right wing war mongerer
slamming some guy for actually shooting an enemy combatant?

Wow, from the absurd to the surreal, you get it all covered.

Hal

Post by Mike Sigman
Mike

[Mike Sigman]

Post by h***@nospam.com
Whoa, let me get this straight: a hate filled right wing war mongerer
slamming some guy for actually shooting an enemy combatant?
Wow, from the absurd to the surreal, you get it all covered.

It's a war crime to "dispatch" a wounded enemy, Hal. That was Kerry's
original story, but he later changed it to "the enemy had a rocket launcher
aimed at the boat". And again, 9 out of 10 guys do NOT support Kerry on
this one.

Mike

[Mike Sigman]

Kerry Was a 'Loose Cannon' While in Vietnam
Washington (CNSNews.com) - John Kerry's former swift boat commanders and
colleagues on Tuesday described the presumptive Democrat nominee as a
self-absorbed and devious sailor during the Vietnam War who was there merely
to advance a future political career.


A group of 18 veterans gathered in the nation's capital asking Kerry to
authorize the Department of the Navy to independently release his military
records, including medical information, about his service during the Vietnam
War. Many said Kerry was unfit to be commander-in-chief of the U.S. military


More than 200 veterans have signed a letter from the group Swift Boat
Veterans for Truth seeking the release of records. Retired Rear Adm. Roy
Hoffmann commanded the swift boat force during Kerry's tour of duty.


"He arrived in country with a strong anti-Vietnam War bias and a
self-serving determination to build a foundation for his political future,"
Hoffmann said. "He was aggressive, but vain and prone to impulsive judgment,
often with disregard to specific tactical assignments. He was a loose
cannon.


"In an abbreviated tour of four months and 12 days," Hoffmann added, "and
with his specious medals secure, Lt. j.g. (junior grade) Kerry bugged out of
Vietnam and began his infamous betrayal of all United States forces in the
Vietnam War."


Several other speakers also criticized Kerry for speaking out against the
war. They said his association with Vietnam Veterans Against the War in the
1970s was disrespectful to the soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen who
served their country.

[Mike Sigman]

John Kerry, War Criminal or Hero
From: Gary Gagliardi
Date: 10 Feb 2004
Time: 13:04:31 -0500


Comments
Was it a good strategy for Kerry to raise issues of Bush's war service?
Only if his own military record can withstand the same scrutiny. We all
know about Kerry's antiwar activity, but could it be that John Kerry accused
Americans soldiers of war crimes because he felt that he won his Silver Star
for an action that bordered on a war crime? On a personal note, I researched
John Kerry's medals because my father, Franklin Gagliardi, and John Kerry
won the exact same medals-the Silver Star, Bronze Star, and Purple Heart.
While I want to honor John Kerry for his service in Viet Nam, I can find few
parallels between what the two men went through for these honors.

Kerry won his Silver Star as a captain of a 5-man swift-boat, Patrol
Craft Fast 94. To summarize, after a B-40 rocket attack, his crew responded
with heavy machine gun fire, routing and wounding a single Viet Cong with a
small rocket launcher. When the man hid behind a small shack, the crew
riddled the building with heavy fire. Afterwards, Kerry beached his boat,
went behind the building and returned with the B-40 launcher, claiming to
have finished the Viet Cong with his 45. For this action, he won the Silver
Star. Could he have taken the man prisoner instead of executing him? Was
the wounded Viet Cong killed in self-defense? We don't know. No one does
because only John Kerry was there. Let us assume the best: he did his job,
but where is the heroism here? Did he win his awards so quickly and for such
minor engagements because he was the scion of a famous Boston Brahmin family
(the Forbes) and had political connections or was this award standard in
Viet Nam? I don't know.

However, when he came back, Kerry became an anti-war activist, accusing
Americans of war crimes in the Winter Soldier Investigations admitting that,
on another patrol craft he had killed a woman, her baby, and a 12-year old
boy while targeting Viet Cong. I have to ask the question, does his joining
the antiwar movement arise from a guilty conscience? Did Kerry give us a
clue to what happened in his 1971 testimony before the Senate Foreign
Relation's Committee? In that testimony, he said specifically, "the killing
of prisoners [was] accepted policy by many units in Vietnam." Suspiciously,
this section of his testimony has been edited out of many posted versions on
the web (see here) sometimes just this single line about killing prisoners
(see here). Wow, that really hits me as suspicious. And elsewhere he said,
"war crimes committed in South East Asia, not isolated incidents, but crimes
committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all
levels of command."

[Mike Sigman]

From http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/03/284188.shtml

In his senior year at Yale in 1966, John Kerry enlisted in the U.S. Navy,
with his actual induction scheduled for the summer after his graduation.
Despite this commitment, Kerry kept a vigilant eye on the political
temperature and duly noted a contradiction between his personal commitment
to go to war and growing antiwar sentiment. At the graduating ceremonies he
made a fiery denunciation of the war and of LBJ. Then Kerry presented
himself for military service.

After a year's training and a spell on the USS Gridley, Kerry reassignment
was to the Swift boat patrol. In Vietnam, the Viet Cong's Tet offensive had
prompted a terrible series of search and destroy missions by the United
States, plus the assassination program known as Phoenix. As part of the U.S.
Navy's slice of the action, Admiral Elmo Zumwalt and his sidekick, Captain
Roy "Latch" Hoffman, had devised "Operation Sea Lords," in which the Swift
boats would patrol the canals and secondary streams of the Mekong Delta,
with particular emphasis on the areas near the Cambodian border. The basic
plan, explicitly acknowledged by many Swift boat veterans, was to terrorize
the peasants into turning against the National Liberation Front, aka Viet
Cong (V.C.). The entire area, except for certain designated "friendly
villages," was a free fire zone, meaning the Americans could shoot at will
and count anyone they killed as V.C.

Day after day, night after night, the Swift boats plied the waters,
harassing and often killing villagers, fishermen and farmers. In this
program, aimed at intimidating the peasants into submission, Kerry was
notoriously zealous. One of his fellow lieutenants, James R. Wasser,
described him admiringly in these words: "Kerry was an extremely aggressive
officer, and so was I. I liked that he took the fight to the enemy, that he
was tough and gutsy -- not afraid to spill blood for his country."

(Douglas Brinkley's recently published and highly admiring bio, "A Tour of
Duty: John Kerry and the Vietnam War," offers many telling vignettes to an
assiduous reader. It's based almost entirely on Kerry's diaries and letters
of the time.)

On Dec. 2, Kerry went on his first patrol up one of the canals. It was near
midnight when the crew caught sight of a sampan. The rules of engagement
required no challenge, no effort to see who was on board the sampan. Kerry
sent up a flare, a signal for his crew to start blazing away with the boat's
two machine guns and M16 rifles. Kerry described the fishermen "running away
like gazelles."

Kerry sustained a very minor wound to his arm, probably caused by debris
from his own boat's salvoes. The scratch earned him his first Purple Heart,
a medal awarded for those wounded in combat. Actually, there's no evidence
that anyone had fired back or that Kerry had been in combat. He got two more
Purple Hearts, both for relatively minor wounds. Indeed, Kerry never missed
a day of duty for any of the medal-earning wounds.

Craving more action, Kerry got himself deployed to An Thoi, at Vietnam's
southern tip, one of the centers for the lethal Phoenix sweeps and the
location of a infamous interrogation camp that held as many as 30,000
prisoners.

Christmas Eve, 1968, finds Kerry leading a patrol up a canal along the
Cambodian border. The Christmas ceasefire has just come into effect. They
spot two sampans and chase them to a small fishing village. The boat takes
some sniper fire (or at least Kerry says it did).

Kerry orders his machine-gunner, James Wasser, to open up a barrage. At last
there's a note of contrition, but not from Kerry. Wasser describes to
Brinkley how he saw that he'd killed an old man leading a water buffalo.
"I'm haunted by that old man's face. He was just doing his daily farming,
hurting nobody. He got hit in the chest with an M-60 machine gun round. It
may have been Christmas Eve, but I was real somber after that ... to see the
old man blown away sticks with you." It turned out that Kerry's boat had
shot up one of the few "friendly" villages, with a garrison of South
Vietnamese ARV soldiers, two of whom were wounded.

Contrast Wasser's sad reflections with Kerry's self-righteous account in his
diary of such salvoes, often aimed into Cambodian territory. "On occasion we
had shot towards the border when provoked by sniper or ambush, but without
fail this led to a formal reprimand by the Cambodian government and
accusations of civilian slaughters and random killings by American
'aggressors.' I have no doubt that on occasion some innocents were hit by
bullets that were aimed in self-defense at the enemy, but of all the cases
in Vietnam that could be labeled massacres, this was certainly the most
spurious."

It's very striking how we never find, in any of Kerry's diaries or letters
cited by Brinkley, the slightest expression of contrition or remorse -- and
Brinkley would surely have quoted them had Kerry ever written such words.
Nor did Kerry, in his later career as a self-promoting star of the antiwar
movement, ever go beyond generalized verbiage about accidents of war, even
as many vets were baring their souls about the horrors they had perpetrated.

When Kerry was awarded his Silver Star (in one episode he had it pinned on
by Admiral Elmo Zumwalt and at the ceremony had the opportunity to meet
Commander Adrian Lonsdale, the operational commander of Seas Lords), Kerry
seized the chance to criticize the conduct of the war: "What we need, Sir,
are some troops to sweep through the areas and secure them after we leave;
otherwise we're just going to be shot to hell after we go through, and
there'll be nothing gained."

Yes, this is the same Kerry who today is calling for 40,000 more U.S. troops
to be deployed to Iraq.

[Chas]

Post by Mike Sigman
Was it a good strategy for Kerry to raise issues of Bush's war service?

What 'war service'?
And in terms of 'openness'; ask Bush again about his 'illicit drug usage'
during that period- the question he refuses to answer.
If all indications are correct, Bush spent the war years much like Clinton;
smoking dope, getting laid, laughing at chumps that couldn't pull the
strings to get out of it. As a bonus, he got to drive the plane-plane around
North Texas at taxpayer's expense.
De war been berry berry good to him.

Post by Mike Sigman
Only if his own military record can withstand the same scrutiny.

The only quibble is whether he deserved the medals he got.
At least he was somewhere to get medals.

Post by Mike Sigman
We all
know about Kerry's antiwar activity, but could it be that John Kerry accused
Americans soldiers of war crimes because he felt that he won his Silver Star
for an action that bordered on a war crime?

Kerry is an asshole- I've thought that for thirty years and more.
But, so's Bush, and he didn't go at all.

Post by Mike Sigman
.....Did he win his awards so quickly and for such
minor engagements because he was the scion of a famous Boston Brahmin family
(the Forbes) and had political connections or was this award standard in
Viet Nam? I don't know.

It wasn't enough to keep him completely out of action, like Bush- but was
probably a factor in how he was treated once he got there.
So you figure the military was complicit in his deceptions? Why wouldn't
they continue to give him special treatment if he became Commander-in-Chief?
Or do you think they'd treat him like they did Carter and Clinton; like they
needed a white cane and sonar to find their collective asses with both
hands?

Post by Mike Sigman
.....And elsewhere he said,
"war crimes committed in South East Asia, not isolated incidents, but crimes
committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all
levels of command."

Same guys who gave him his medals- and issued everybody else's medals as
well.
Kerry really looks bad- until you compare him with Bush.

Chas

[Mike Sigman]

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
Was it a good strategy for Kerry to raise issues of Bush's war service?

What 'war service'?
And in terms of 'openness'; ask Bush again about his 'illicit drug usage'
during that period- the question he refuses to answer.
If all indications are correct, Bush spent the war years much like Clinton;
smoking dope, getting laid, laughing at chumps that couldn't pull the
strings to get out of it. As a bonus, he got to drive the plane-plane around
North Texas at taxpayer's expense.
De war been berry berry good to him.

Er, the comment you attributed to me was written by one Gary Gagliardi,
Chas. I'm too careful with my words to say "war service" that loosely.

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
Only if his own military record can withstand the same scrutiny.

The only quibble is whether he deserved the medals he got.
At least he was somewhere to get medals.

Post by Mike Sigman
We all
know about Kerry's antiwar activity, but could it be that John Kerry

accused

Post by Mike Sigman
Americans soldiers of war crimes because he felt that he won his Silver

Star

Post by Mike Sigman
for an action that bordered on a war crime?

Kerry is an asshole- I've thought that for thirty years and more.
But, so's Bush, and he didn't go at all.

Bush didn't claim any medals and try to get elected president on the claim..
all he did was skip a few meetings. There is not a comparable level of
dishonesty.

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
It wasn't enough to keep him completely out of action, like Bush- but was

probably a factor in how he was treated once he got there.
So you figure the military was complicit in his deceptions? Why wouldn't
they continue to give him special treatment if he became

Commander-in-Chief?

Post by Chas
Or do you think they'd treat him like they did Carter and Clinton; like they
needed a white cane and sonar to find their collective asses with both
hands?

He turned on the military and accused them of the crimes he did, Chas. They
are now enemies.

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
.....And elsewhere he said,
"war crimes committed in South East Asia, not isolated incidents, but

crimes

Post by Mike Sigman
committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all
levels of command."

Same guys who gave him his medals- and issued everybody else's medals as
well.
Kerry really looks bad- until you compare him with Bush.

That's like saying the Palestinians look bad... until you compare them with
the Israelis. There is no moral equivalency between the guy who skipped
Guard meetings and the guy who bogused up the claim of "war hero", Chas.

Mike

[Chas]

Post by Mike Sigman
Er, the comment you attributed to me was written by one Gary Gagliardi,
Chas. I'm too careful with my words to say "war service" that loosely.

I was just commenting on the point- doesn't matter who said it.

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by Chas
Kerry is an asshole- I've thought that for thirty years and more.
But, so's Bush, and he didn't go at all.

Bush didn't claim any medals and try to get elected president on the claim..
all he did was skip a few meetings. There is not a comparable level of
dishonesty.

Hogwash.
GWB plays his military service to the hilt; dressing up in a flight suit,
little snappy salutes and all- he plays that 'fighter pilot' crap to the
max.
And, Kerry doesn't 'claim' the medals, he *got* the medals. Unless you
postulate that the whole system is flawed, and that Kerry was somehow able
to administrate it-?

Post by Mike Sigman
He turned on the military and accused them of the crimes he did, Chas.

They

Post by Mike Sigman
are now enemies.

Oh yeah; he's a rotten fuck, and I despise him.
He's just a rottenfuck with medals- as opposed to being a rottenfuck with no
service at all.

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by Chas
Kerry really looks bad- until you compare him with Bush.

That's like saying the Palestinians look bad... until you compare them with
the Israelis. There is no moral equivalency between the guy who skipped
Guard meetings and the guy who bogused up the claim of "war hero", Chas.

Yes; the guy who actually went and did is far more 'moral' than the Slacker
who took the percs, never picked up the tab, and found the hat laid out on
his bed by his batman.

Chas

[Mike Sigman]

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
Er, the comment you attributed to me was written by one Gary Gagliardi,
Chas. I'm too careful with my words to say "war service" that loosely.

I was just commenting on the point- doesn't matter who said it.

It matters to me, since your post attributed it to me.

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by Chas
Kerry is an asshole- I've thought that for thirty years and more.
But, so's Bush, and he didn't go at all.

Bush didn't claim any medals and try to get elected president on the

claim..

Post by Mike Sigman
all he did was skip a few meetings. There is not a comparable level of
dishonesty.

Hogwash.
GWB plays his military service to the hilt; dressing up in a flight suit,
little snappy salutes and all- he plays that 'fighter pilot' crap to the
max.

He IS a fighter pilot, Chas. Just because he is not marionette to your
ideas doesn't mean you should get so upset. The world may not be entirely
as you imagine it should be.

Post by Chas
And, Kerry doesn't 'claim' the medals, he *got* the medals. Unless you
postulate that the whole system is flawed, and that Kerry was somehow able
to administrate it-?

I've always postulated the medal system was flawed. Ever since I saw the
bullshit and favoritism in Viet Nam diluting the deeds of real heroes. I've
even posted on it before. Guarantee you there's not a single sailor on that
boat the accumulated the number of medals Kerry did. Want to bet?

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
He turned on the military and accused them of the crimes he did, Chas.

They

Post by Mike Sigman
are now enemies.

Oh yeah; he's a rotten fuck, and I despise him.
He's just a rottenfuck with medals- as opposed to being a rottenfuck with no
service at all.

Yeah, and Joseph Kenedy was just a rotten fuck with money as opposed to the
morally righteous people that decided not to steal. Nice argument, Chas.

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by Chas
Kerry really looks bad- until you compare him with Bush.

That's like saying the Palestinians look bad... until you compare them

with

Post by Mike Sigman
the Israelis. There is no moral equivalency between the guy who skipped
Guard meetings and the guy who bogused up the claim of "war hero", Chas.

Yes; the guy who actually went and did is far more 'moral' than the Slacker
who took the percs, never picked up the tab, and found the hat laid out on
his bed by his batman.

You've built this story up, Chas. Are you saying that if things had been
done right they'd have disbanded the National Guard and sent everyone in it
to Viet Nam????? Or are you just angry at "rich people" who have more than
you do?

Mike

[Chas]

Post by Mike Sigman
He IS a fighter pilot, Chas.

more like just a pilot- I don't think 'fighter' is all that applicable.
Talk about a waste of training......

Post by Mike Sigman
I've always postulated the medal system was flawed.

As flawed as the 'show-up-if-you-care-to' system?

Post by Mike Sigman
Yeah, and Joseph Kenedy was just a rotten fuck with money as opposed to the
morally righteous people that decided not to steal. Nice argument, Chas.

If one is comparing rottenfucks, there is only the greater and the lesser.

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by Chas
Yes; the guy who actually went and did is far more 'moral' than the

Slacker

Post by Chas
who took the percs, never picked up the tab, and found the hat laid out on
his bed by his batman.

You've built this story up, Chas. Are you saying that if things had been
done right they'd have disbanded the National Guard and sent everyone in it
to Viet Nam?????

Just the ones on the rotation roster- like the rest of the pilots in GWB's
squadron were subject to.

Post by Mike Sigman
Or are you just angry at "rich people" who have more than
you do?

Depends on if they're thieves or not- one of the reasons I don't like either
the Kennedy's or the Bushes.
And you?
How much money does it take to wipe out being a crook?

Chas

[Mike Sigman]

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
He IS a fighter pilot, Chas.

more like just a pilot- I don't think 'fighter' is all that applicable.
Talk about a waste of training......

They're called "fighter jets", Chas, so "fighter pilot" is considered
correct.

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
I've always postulated the medal system was flawed.

As flawed as the 'show-up-if-you-care-to' system?

Who cares? That's your issue, not the one on topic.

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
Yeah, and Joseph Kenedy was just a rotten fuck with money as opposed to

the

Post by Mike Sigman
morally righteous people that decided not to steal. Nice argument, Chas.

If one is comparing rottenfucks, there is only the greater and the lesser.

Then perhaps all the world is rotten but me and thee, Chas. Except you're
worried about me. :^)

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by Chas
Yes; the guy who actually went and did is far more 'moral' than the

Slacker

Post by Chas
who took the percs, never picked up the tab, and found the hat laid

out

Post by Chas
on

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by Chas
his bed by his batman.

You've built this story up, Chas. Are you saying that if things had been
done right they'd have disbanded the National Guard and sent everyone in

it

Post by Mike Sigman
to Viet Nam?????

Just the ones on the rotation roster- like the rest of the pilots in GWB's
squadron were subject to.

Shit happens, Chas. Why the belly-aching?

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
Or are you just angry at "rich people" who have more than
you do?

Depends on if they're thieves or not- one of the reasons I don't like either
the Kennedy's or the Bushes.
And you?
How much money does it take to wipe out being a crook?

I know crooks of all economic brackets, Chas... I don't catalogue them by
net worth.

Mike

[Chas]

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by Chas
more like just a pilot- I don't think 'fighter' is all that applicable.
Talk about a waste of training......

They're called "fighter jets", Chas, so "fighter pilot" is considered
correct.

Sorry; I had it conflated with 'fighting' pilot.
So, Gore was a Marine Rifleman by that definition, yes?

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
I've always postulated the medal system was flawed.

As flawed as the 'show-up-if-you-care-to' system?

Who cares? That's your issue, not the one on topic.

If Bush is a Fighter Pilot, Kerry's a Silver Star honoree.

Post by Mike Sigman
Then perhaps all the world is rotten but me and thee, Chas. Except you're
worried about me. :^)

Nah; you're a pretty trustworthy guy, and have earned all you have-
admirable.

Post by Mike Sigman
Shit happens, Chas. Why the belly-aching?

No bellyaching- just calling attention to the hypocrisy of it all. The
differences between the two of them are more smoke and mirrors than any
actuality. They're more likely to party together than to find any
substantial differences between them.

Post by Mike Sigman
I know crooks of all economic brackets, Chas... I don't catalogue them by
net worth.

Except as regards how facile they are; 'successful' crooks as contrasted
with unsuccessful ones.
I tend to classify people by their honesty rather than their bank account as
well- and you're just under the wire, Sigman; don't push it ;-))

Chas

[Grappler240]

Post by Chas
Sorry; I had it conflated with 'fighting' pilot.
So, Gore was a Marine Rifleman by that definition, yes?

EVERY marine is a rifleman. It's common knowledge to anyone in the know....all
marines are first and foremost riflemen...and other things second.

-g

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"You can carve it on a bowling pin and cram it,for all I care."
-Gichoke, Jan. 21, 2002

[Chas]

Post by Grappler240

Post by Chas
Sorry; I had it conflated with 'fighting' pilot.
So, Gore was a Marine Rifleman by that definition, yes?

EVERY marine is a rifleman. It's common knowledge to anyone in the know....all
marines are first and foremost riflemen...and other things second.

The past discussion was that Gore was a remf; some sort of photog billet
that his Daddy got for him.

Chas

[Grappler240]

Post by Chas
The past discussion was that Gore was a remf; some sort of photog billet
that his Daddy got for him.

if he made it past boot....he's a rifleman.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"You can carve it on a bowling pin and cram it,for all I care."
-Gichoke, Jan. 21, 2002

[Mike Sigman]

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
They're called "fighter jets", Chas, so "fighter pilot" is considered
correct.

Sorry; I had it conflated with 'fighting' pilot.
So, Gore was a Marine Rifleman by that definition, yes?

The analogy fails.

Post by Chas
If Bush is a Fighter Pilot, Kerry's a Silver Star honoree.

Kerry's Star is not by training, though, so again the analogy fails.

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
I know crooks of all economic brackets, Chas... I don't catalogue them by
net worth.

Except as regards how facile they are; 'successful' crooks as contrasted
with unsuccessful ones.
I tend to classify people by their honesty rather than their bank account as
well- and you're just under the wire, Sigman; don't push it ;-))

In that case, Bush was making no claims that were false; Kerry was. So in
picking the "lesser of two evils", the natural choice is Bush. The contest
is to me, as I've stated before, who will let this country defend itself as
opposed to the one who will let this country be attacked by the enemy...
Kerry would take an attack like the one on the WTC and let the UN debate it
for a decade. Bush will bomb the piss out of the enemy, deterring them at a
minimum. That's all I care about at the moment. If I thought Kerry was the
one who would be defending the country better, I'd be voting Democrat.

Mike

[Chas]

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
They're called "fighter jets", Chas, so "fighter pilot" is considered
correct.

Sorry; I had it conflated with 'fighting' pilot.
So, Gore was a Marine Rifleman by that definition, yes?

The analogy fails.

Yeah; Gore actually went too.

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by Chas
If Bush is a Fighter Pilot, Kerry's a Silver Star honoree.

Kerry's Star is not by training, though, so again the analogy fails.

No; it's by act of Congress-
as opposed to a high-speed exit, ala GWB.

Post by Mike Sigman
In that case, Bush was making no claims that were false; Kerry was.

Well; Kerry's claims are unlikely, not impossible- and the claims are
supported by some sort of documentation, not an inferential apologia like
GWB's explanation about showing up in Alabama.

Post by Mike Sigman
.....The contest
is to me, as I've stated before, who will let this country defend itself as
opposed to the one who will let this country be attacked by the enemy...

Whole different question than redacting history to paint Shrub as a moral
man of any integrity at all.
Kerry is a traitor in my estimation- no idea how he ever got this far for
any party with any conscience.
They do have a certain moral equivalency in that regard.

Chas

[Mike Sigman]

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
They're called "fighter jets", Chas, so "fighter pilot" is considered
correct.

Sorry; I had it conflated with 'fighting' pilot.
So, Gore was a Marine Rifleman by that definition, yes?

The analogy fails.

Yeah; Gore actually went too.

I don't have a problem with that, Chas. "Fighter" pilot is a common term
for someone that flies a jet fighter... "rifleman" is not a common term for
a Marine.

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman

Post by Chas
If Bush is a Fighter Pilot, Kerry's a Silver Star honoree.

Kerry's Star is not by training, though, so again the analogy fails.

No; it's by act of Congress-
as opposed to a high-speed exit, ala GWB.

What did Bush exit at high-speed. You're simply reaching for all these bad
things to say, Chas. It ill becomes you.

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
In that case, Bush was making no claims that were false; Kerry was.

Well; Kerry's claims are unlikely, not impossible- and the claims are
supported by some sort of documentation, not an inferential apologia like
GWB's explanation about showing up in Alabama.

Kerry's claims go against the actual re-telling of people who were there,
Chas. The only person who has gone against Bush's story is *one* officer
who was part of the command structure in Alabama and friends have come
forward to diplomatically mention that the man is in early Alzheimer's. So
at least you have someone with Alzheimer's on your side in the attempts to
belittle Georgie. Problem is, it's too obviously an attack on the man, not
on the actual facts, and that's bothersome.

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
.....The contest
is to me, as I've stated before, who will let this country defend itself

as

Post by Mike Sigman
opposed to the one who will let this country be attacked by the enemy...

Whole different question than redacting history to paint Shrub as a moral
man of any integrity at all.
Kerry is a traitor in my estimation- no idea how he ever got this far for
any party with any conscience.
They do have a certain moral equivalency in that regard.

I've never tried to paint Bush (pardon me for not following your personal
denigrations) as a "moral man"... I've simply pointed out that the boring
facts about Bush's National Guard service are not as duplicitous as the man
who spent 4 months in Viet Nam and got awarded every medal but Medal of
Honor by his Navy buddies.

Mike

[Mike Sigman]

Washington Prowler
After the Fall Print Friendly Format
E-Mail this to a Friend
By The Prowler
Published 3/22/2004 12:07:15 AM


JOCK STRAPPED
It's been less than a month, and already there are rumors
inside the Treasury Department that a Secret Service agent working on the
detail for presumptive Democratic presidential nominee is asking for
reassignment.

"It was the shopping thing in Boston last week," says a
uniformed service officer. "It has been the talk around the office. The man
makes his security detail run errands with him, including when buying a jock
strap? It was all photo-op stuff. Two weeks earlier, Senator Kerry would
have had an intern do it. Another man would have asked his wife or kids to
help him out. But Kerry said he needed to be out in public."

John Kerry made quite a scene traveling around Boston
first buying a number of nonfiction, difficult-to-read books with titles
that would impress anyone who didn't realize Kerry probably won't actually
read them, except for maybe the late Stephen Ambrose's Undaunted Courage.
Kerry also picked up his bicycle from the shop, and then picked out the
athletic supporter. With his daughter looking on.

Further adding to the tension is Kerry's behavior in
Ketchum, Idaho, where while on the slopes snowboarding Kerry made much of
his athletic prowess in the hours leading up to his first official foray.
Yet once network news cameras were deployed, Kerry and his staff asked that
no pictures be taken until after he'd had a "practice run."

The cameramen agreed. At that point, Kerry allowed several
cameramen on skis to follow him down the slopes. But a few minutes later,
when a Secret Service agent accidentally knocked Kerry down as the agent
avoided some other skiers, Kerry threw a fit.

"First, Kerry sat up and took off his sunglasses. He was
looking to see where the cameras were and whether his fall got
photographed," says a production assistant for one of the network crews.
Then when asked about the tumble by a producer for one of the crews, Kerry
infamously snapped, "I don't fall down. That son of a bitch ran into me,"
and pointed at the Secret Service agent.

"It was an extremely uncomfortable scene. Everyone saw
it," says the production assistant. "It reminded a few of the older folks of
the early Clinton days when he would dress down staff and low level aides
when he got mad."

Later, Kerry walked into the ski resort's lounge. Outside,
standing on the deck, there had been a smattering of applause. Kerry waived
and entered the lounge, apparently thinking he'd get more of the same.

Instead, he heard taunts of "Bush. Bush. Bush." The
candidate didn't stay long, and didn't acknowledge the jeers of his
opposition. He shouldn't have been surprised ... Idaho is attack-machine Red
State territory after all.






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[Chas]

Post by Mike Sigman
I don't have a problem with that, Chas. "Fighter" pilot is a common term
for someone that flies a jet fighter...

Jet fighter being a plane that you fight with- as opposed to just a ride
around Texas

Post by Mike Sigman
"rifleman" is not a common term for
a Marine.

Well it ain't 'Infantryman', Mike.

Post by Mike Sigman
What did Bush exit at high-speed.

His squadron in Texas when they started rotating fighter pilots into the
warzone, Mike.
I didn't do the research myself, so the timeline was from someone else- they
did an analysis on what precipitated his 'missing some meetings'. Qualified
fighter pilots were dropping like flies, and they were activating NG pilots.
GWB's 'pool' of pilots was hit pretty good. By being absent, his billet was
taken by someone else.

Post by Mike Sigman
You're simply reaching for all these bad
things to say, Chas. It ill becomes you.

I don't like either one of them.
and Bush is not my Commander-in-Chief, so I owe him nothing but basic
allegiance for being on our side.

Post by Mike Sigman
Kerry's claims go against the actual re-telling of people who were there,
Chas.

Who would also be guys who remember what he did when he got back.
Whatever he did and however he got the medals, he shamed them when he got
back- that's the bottom line for me.

Post by Mike Sigman
The only person who has gone against Bush's story is *one* officer
who was part of the command structure in Alabama and friends have come
forward to diplomatically mention that the man is in early Alzheimer's.

So

Post by Mike Sigman
at least you have someone with Alzheimer's on your side in the attempts to
belittle Georgie. Problem is, it's too obviously an attack on the man, not
on the actual facts, and that's bothersome.

You're welcome to canonize him, Mike- use his toenail clippings for magic; I
don't care.
He is just another Bush; much like his Dad, and Neil- I don't remember Jeb
disgracing himself yet, so I'll give him the benefit of the Florida doubt in
the last election.
Bush has no mandate- and I don't trust him worth a damn.
I think Kerry is a Republican set-up; only guy in the world that would make
Butch look good by comparison.

Post by Mike Sigman
I've never tried to paint Bush (pardon me for not following your personal
denigrations) as a "moral man"...

either one of them; just doesn't fit.

Post by Mike Sigman
I've simply pointed out that the boring
facts about Bush's National Guard service are not as duplicitous as the man
who spent 4 months in Viet Nam and got awarded every medal but Medal of
Honor by his Navy buddies.

Fuckin' squids.
Only thing worse is them airdale motherfuckers.
*grumble grumble grumble*

Chas

[Mike Sigman]

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
I don't have a problem with that, Chas. "Fighter" pilot is a common term
for someone that flies a jet fighter...

Jet fighter being a plane that you fight with- as opposed to just a ride
around Texas

Post by Mike Sigman
"rifleman" is not a common term for
a Marine.

Well it ain't 'Infantryman', Mike.

Post by Mike Sigman
What did Bush exit at high-speed.

His squadron in Texas when they started rotating fighter pilots into the
warzone, Mike.
I didn't do the research myself, so the timeline was from someone else- they
did an analysis on what precipitated his 'missing some meetings'. Qualified
fighter pilots were dropping like flies, and they were activating NG pilots.
GWB's 'pool' of pilots was hit pretty good. By being absent, his billet was
taken by someone else.

Sure, Chas. And we went to Iraq, Bosnia, and Afghanistan "for the oil",
according to these same people.

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
You're simply reaching for all these bad
things to say, Chas. It ill becomes you.

I don't like either one of them.
and Bush is not my Commander-in-Chief, so I owe him nothing but basic
allegiance for being on our side.

Post by Mike Sigman
Kerry's claims go against the actual re-telling of people who were there,
Chas.

Who would also be guys who remember what he did when he got back.
Whatever he did and however he got the medals, he shamed them when he got
back- that's the bottom line for me.

I'm talking about his crew-members and C.O. You're saying that Kerry's
word is good, then?

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
The only person who has gone against Bush's story is *one* officer
who was part of the command structure in Alabama and friends have come
forward to diplomatically mention that the man is in early Alzheimer's.

So

Post by Mike Sigman
at least you have someone with Alzheimer's on your side in the attempts to
belittle Georgie. Problem is, it's too obviously an attack on the man,

not

Post by Mike Sigman
on the actual facts, and that's bothersome.

You're welcome to canonize him, Mike- use his toenail clippings for magic; I
don't care.

I'm not canonizing, Chas. I've made that clear. What you're doing is
simple smearing, though.

Post by Chas
Fuckin' squids.
Only thing worse is them airdale motherfuckers.
*grumble grumble grumble*

Junior Birdmen.

Mike

[Chas]

Post by Mike Sigman
I'm talking about his crew-members and C.O. You're saying that Kerry's
word is good, then?

You mean about seeing more combat than GWB?

Post by Mike Sigman
I'm not canonizing, Chas. I've made that clear. What you're doing is
simple smearing, though.

'simple smearing'??
Kerry actually went and did; somebody liked him enough to give him a Silver
Star; then a Bronze Star, then three Purple Hearts. We may all have
differing ideas about what it takes to get any one of them; even two, even
four maybe; but five?
Crafty old Kerry.

Post by Mike Sigman
Junior Birdmen.

heh.
air-men.
heh.

Chas

[screedmonkey]

Post by Mike Sigman
I'm not canonizing, Chas. I've made that clear. What you're doing is
simple smearing, though.
Mike

no what you're doing is showcase huge levels of stupidity. One saw combat,
one hid behind his rich daddy, the difference isn't hard to see, and you
can spin it anyway you want, he still didnt see combat, you fucking
necon-symp.

[screedmonkey]

Post by Chas

Post by Mike Sigman
I don't have a problem with that, Chas. "Fighter" pilot is a common term
for someone that flies a jet fighter...

Jet fighter being a plane that you fight with- as opposed to just a ride
around Texas

Post by Mike Sigman
"rifleman" is not a common term for
a Marine.

Well it ain't 'Infantryman', Mike.

Post by Mike Sigman
What did Bush exit at high-speed.

His squadron in Texas when they started rotating fighter pilots into the
warzone, Mike.
I didn't do the research myself, so the timeline was from someone else-
they did an analysis on what precipitated his 'missing some meetings'.
Qualified fighter pilots were dropping like flies, and they were
activating NG pilots. GWB's 'pool' of pilots was hit pretty good. By being
absent, his billet was taken by someone else.

Post by Mike Sigman
You're simply reaching for all these bad
things to say, Chas. It ill becomes you.

I don't like either one of them.
and Bush is not my Commander-in-Chief, so I owe him nothing but basic
allegiance for being on our side.

Post by Mike Sigman
Kerry's claims go against the actual re-telling of people who were there,
Chas.

Who would also be guys who remember what he did when he got back.
Whatever he did and however he got the medals, he shamed them when he got
back- that's the bottom line for me.

Post by Mike Sigman
The only person who has gone against Bush's story is *one* officer
who was part of the command structure in Alabama and friends have come
forward to diplomatically mention that the man is in early Alzheimer's.

So

Post by Mike Sigman
at least you have someone with Alzheimer's on your side in the attempts to
belittle Georgie. Problem is, it's too obviously an attack on the man,

not

Post by Mike Sigman
on the actual facts, and that's bothersome.

You're welcome to canonize him, Mike- use his toenail clippings for magic;
I don't care.
He is just another Bush; much like his Dad, and Neil- I don't remember Jeb
disgracing himself yet, so I'll give him the benefit of the Florida doubt
in the last election.
Bush has no mandate- and I don't trust him worth a damn.
I think Kerry is a Republican set-up; only guy in the world that would
make Butch look good by comparison.

Post by Mike Sigman
I've never tried to paint Bush (pardon me for not following your personal
denigrations) as a "moral man"...

either one of them; just doesn't fit.

Post by Mike Sigman
I've simply pointed out that the boring
facts about Bush's National Guard service are not as duplicitous as the

man

Post by Mike Sigman
who spent 4 months in Viet Nam and got awarded every medal but Medal of
Honor by his Navy buddies.

Fuckin' squids.
Only thing worse is them airdale motherfuckers.
*grumble grumble grumble*
Chas

It seems that Siggie is being shown up for his ranty rhetoric yet AGAIN.
Priceless.

[Mike Sigman]

Saturday, May 1, 2004 10:57 a.m. EDT
Gen. Giap Thanks Kerry & Co. for Anti-war Protests

Celebrating the 29th anniversary of the fall of Saigon, the North Vietnamese
general who led his forces to victory said Friday he was grateful to leaders
of the U.S. anti-war movement, one of whom was presidential candidate John
Kerry.

"I would like to thank them," said Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap, now 93, without
mentioning Kerry by name. "Any forces that wish to impose their will on
other nations will surely fail," he added.

Reuters, which first reported Giap's comments, suggested that the former
enemy general was mindful of Kerry's role in leading some of the
highest-profile anti-war protests of the entire Vietnam War.

Before the British wire service quoted Gen. Giap, it noted:

"The Vietnam War, known in Vietnam as the American War, has become a hot
issue in the U.S. presidential race with Democrat John Kerry drawing
attention to his service and President Bush's Republicans disparaging
Kerry's later anti-war stand."

North Vietnamese Col. Bui Tin, who served under Gen. Giap on the general
staff of the North Vietnamese army, received South Vietnam's unconditional
surrender on April 30, 1975.

In an interview with the Wall Street Journal after his retirement, Col. Tin
explicitly credited leaders of the U.S. anti-war movement, saying they were
"essential to our strategy."

"Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9AM
to follow the growth of the antiwar movement," Col. Tin told the Journal.

Visits to Hanoi by Kerry anti-war allies Jane Fonda and former Attorney
General Ramsey Clark and others, he said, "gave us confidence that we should
hold on in the face of battlefield reverses."

"We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a
press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war," the
North Vietnamese military man explained.

Kerry did much the same thing in widely covered speeches such as the one he
delivered to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in April 1971.

"Through dissent and protest [America] lost the ability to mobilize a will
to win," Col. Tin concluded.

[screedmonkey]

Mike Sigman wrote:

KOOKSCREED SNIPPED:

You border on treason sometimes.